okay conservatives

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Originally Posted by RJG

It would behoove the GOP to take note that there are a lot of moderate Republicans who are feeling angry with and disenfranchised by the Republican Party.

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Please define moderate Republican & give a couple of examples of office holders that pass your litmus test.

Greta Van Susteren just asked Rush Limbaugh "Who is the leader of the Republican Party now?"

Limbaugh said "There isn't one."

I agree.

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Originally Posted by Marvin S

IMO - Do large corporate farms making millions of dollars need subsidies - that's where 90% of the Farm Bill goes? I know this, on the practical side, the cracked corn & wheat I feed my own birds & the wild ones now cost $42 rather than the $24 it cost a year ago. That's a tax that is hidden. If we can import something at a lower cost, import it, don't charge a tariff to protect a non-competitive industry.

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Just FYI - 65% of the farm bill goes to food stamps and other social programs.
The farm bill is huge pork. I grew up on a small farm with my Dad working a full time job and mom part time. Since moving to ND, I have come to have a bad taste in my mouth regarding farmers and ranchers. I would have never have believed it prior to moving here.

The political clout held by so few is amazing to me. The Farm Bureau and Ranchers Assoc. has huge control over our 2 senators and gov. ND has two very senior senators in Dorgan and Conrad.

I am sure most of you are somewhat familiar with Devils Lake in ND. It increased tremendously in size in the late 90's. Huge FEMA dollars were spent relocating people as the lake swallowed up their property. Main roads were moved and rebuilt. One little town was basically taken from the map.

This whole thing was caused by farmers draining every slough from Devils Lake north to Canada. The farmers all sat on the water boards that allowed draining. Why this wasn't controlled by at the State level by professionals is disgusting.

The ranchers and the management of the National Grasslands is just as bad. They created a depredation hunt for elk around Teddy Rosevelt National Park. Except most of the tags are bulls. Gratis landowner tags are most of the tags. Not exactly based on biology, more creating a private trophy bull hunt for a group of 50 landowners.

Most of you from larger states would be amazed at the political power welded by such a small group. I know I was.

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Originally Posted by brian breuer

Just FYI - 65% of the farm bill goes to food stamps and other social programs.

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Food Stamps are corporate welfare. Less then 10% of the cost of a loaf of bread is returned to the original producer, the remainder goes to the manufacturers, the distributors & the eventual sales mechanism. No different than any other packaged product. These are the major supporters of food stamps. Don't the participants just get a debit card to cover their allotment of someone else's hard earned money?

When I grew up there was a commodities program, most of the money went to the producer, families could sign up for relief. On distribution day, biweekly from memory, the family could go to the distribution center & receive a peck of potatoes, sack of prunes, oatmeal, flour, & other commodities. Rarely anything canned but occasionally some fresh suitable for canning. My grandparents raised me until I was 12. We were the only family in the county, not on the public payroll, not on relief. We could have gotten it, my grandparents were too proud to accept something they did not need. Many did, even in those days.

Contrast that to today, where you can be a loser, & still shop with the winners, in actuality buying many things the thrifty avoid. There is no penalty for being a loser. We also had relief, where someone who accepted same would have their name in the paper. The only time it would get questioned was when someone was drawing it undeservedly. Every one lives life with the potential of being down on their luck at one time or another.

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Originally Posted by bb

The farm bill is huge pork. I grew up on a small farm with my Dad working a full time job and mom part time. Since moving to ND, I have come to have a bad taste in my mouth regarding farmers and ranchers. I would have never have believed it prior to moving here.

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Meant to help the small farmer, just not many campaign donations from people like that. ewg.org has a website where you can go by state & check out those at the trough & the amount.

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Originally Posted by bb

The political clout held by so few is amazing to me. The Farm Bureau and Ranchers Assoc. has huge control over our 2 senators and gov. ND has two very senior senators in Dorgan and Conrad.

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Amazing what delivering a bloc of votes, a weekend hunting on a private ranch or farm, some favorable press releases & a little bit of lobbying will do. Maybe even an occasional donation of some sort.

But then again, look at the enormous clout of SEIU, NEA, the NDEA & many other bloc's of votes. It's just getting more than you deserve at the expense of someone else. The good old American way.

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Originally Posted by bb

I am sure most of you are somewhat familiar with Devils Lake in ND. It increased tremendously in size in the late 90's. Huge FEMA dollars were spent relocating people as the lake swallowed up their property. Main roads were moved and rebuilt. One little town was basically taken from the map.

This whole thing was caused by farmers draining every slough from Devils Lake north to Canada. The farmers all sat on the water boards that allowed draining. Why this wasn't controlled by at the State level by professionals is disgusting.

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Potholes Drainage Act of sometime in the mid 1930's, has it ever been repealed? To get rid of those pesky water holding structures created by the Ice Age. My Grandpa bought a 1/4 section to be able to drain a low spot on one of his properties, needed a right of way for a ditch.

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Originally Posted by bb

The ranchers and the management of the National Grasslands is just as bad. They created a depredation hunt for elk around Teddy Rosevelt National Park. Except most of the tags are bulls. Gratis landowner tags are most of the tags. Not exactly based on biology, more creating a private trophy bull hunt for a group of 50 landowners.

Most of you from larger states would be amazed at the political power welded by such a small group. I know I was.

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Power wielded by small influential groups is not new to our society, nor is the inability to resist the temptation of the trappings of power. If you pay attention during your journey through life you will recognize many abuses. & as an attorney I know well says "There is rarely justice in the justice system."

Many of the citizens of the fair city we reside in hate the deer & elk, we consider them treasures. They were here long before we came on the scene, so we believe they have some rights.

Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Marvin S

IMO - The Conservatives need to get their fiscal house in order - cut spending, remove agencies that are not federally required. The entitlements of public employees are a major problem that has not even been framed. Everything can be done by numbers. Do large corporate farms making millions of dollars need subsidies - that's where 90% of the Farm Bill goes? I know this, on the practical side, the cracked corn & wheat I feed my own birds & the wild ones now cost $42 rather than the $24 it cost a year ago. That's a tax that is hidden. If we can import something at a lower cost, import it, don't charge a tariff to protect a non-competitive industry.

On the social side - When you tell someone else what they need to do you are stepping into their area of freedom. This is a fault of both the D's with their incentive reducing social programs (well intentioned but ineffective) & the God Squad R's, who will sit on their hands if they don't get their way.

But I will say this, unless we walk in someone else's shoes, we do not know what the circumstances are & should not be in judgment. There is a time & place where certain actions may be warranted because of the circumstances. We cannot have a law & an agency for every circumstance that may arise. & that's where my libertarian tendencies arise.

I do know this, I lost an aunt who I never knew because of a botched abortion attempt, please don't ask me how I feel. I was deprived of that aunt in my growing up years. & possibly someone I could have lived with when my grandmother died, as my own parents were entirely dysfunctional.

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I agree and it was the religious Right that pushed the "undecideds" to the left. The new Republican Party needs to part with the Religious Right if they ever want to return to the mainstream.

If you have 30 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt1fYSAChxs