Not that I agree or disagree with this method,but I definetly believe in having a dog with the upmost in balance!! I can't foreget what either Joe Harp or Hugh Author said one time "Rin Tin Tin can't go Long twice, then go short." Evidentally David has broken that train of thought, I have never tried that on purpose, but it has happened to me before!! I think I will discuss this topic at large with Mike and see what he thinks, I'm pretty sure what the answer will be, IT DEPENDS!!! Having a dog balanced with enough bottom to get that long retired punch bird and thinking enough to pickup the short retired right in front of a middle distance flyer is what we are all hoping to have, no matter what order your training dictates you to the order that you pickup the birds. This is the best topic RTF has had in a while.I hope to get to sit in on a Rorem seminar sometime in the near future to hear more about this topic.
Yes,,, you wanna fight a dog at a trial on what bird they want??
Originally Posted by john fallon
What does your mentor say John? I'm sure you train with good field trial pro's all the time? What is their take on it?
We reviewed the Carr -Rorem video tonight on the subject...it was interesting.Though the video is fairly old....it seems he was refining the theories he uses today.Pertty cool.
Maybe "Rin Tin Tin" can't go short after going long twice? But our AA dogs can. Think about it. Where else can they go but short once the long appealling birds have been picked up, in a situation that's been described?
Originally Posted by Chad Baker
Train for flexability and depth... A dog needs a very, very rich vocabulary to be successful week in and week out at field trials.
But be prepared for how a dog will want to pick up their marks at a trial. It can be very contrary to your training given the situation.
A big reason for secondary selection, is to pick up the tougher short bird while it is fresher in the dog's memory. Is that the trade off? The fresher memory vs the absence of the suction from the long attractive bird if it is out of the picture.
Originally Posted by Ted Shih
Does the it matter the type of dog? For example, a good short bird marker vs poor short bird marker. Or, a dog that is flier crazy and will go to the long flier anyway vs the team player that will pick them up in whatever order the handler wants.
Who determines the order of pickup the dog or the handler?
Go to any weekend trial and watch Amateurs (sometimes a goofball pro) “TRY” to fight a dog off a bird that the dog wants…thereby sending the entire series into the s#!t house.
Originally Posted by Angie B
I'm still sitting back to take it in. I am sincerely interested in the thoughts that the successful, or about to be so, RTF folks have.
John Fallon, please, sincerely, if you have something to contribute, please lay it out in some detail. I believe you likely have some knowledge to share and I personally am not sharp enough to dig it out of the brief rhetoricals....
2 things come to mind in the selection decision: habits and picture.
Habits dealing with order that the dog is most accustomed/training. As creatures of habit many dogs are most confident picking up in reverse order.
Balance this against the picture presented to the dog. Retired or not how well did these throws standout as they were going down? What will dog be looking at when/if he overruns the short bird?
IMHO there is no formula. It's a game time decision.
The dog,,, The short bird is there in a well schooled, well trained AA dog... They do remember it from all the short retired bird training they've had.
Originally Posted by Doug Main
At a trial,,, the symantics change... A dog will always want what they want first. That is to go long... It's the way they're programed. Long is easy...
Let that dog get what they want first... Then you have all the time you want or need to "talk them into" that short retired bird... The suction is gone from the birds they want... There is no where else to go,,, so they are more receptive to the idea of going to that short retired bird.
Thank you Dave Rorem,,,
Makes total sense to me. How about you John???
Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.
It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.