You said earlier,
Originally Posted by john fallon
“Now that second whistle had obviously been paired with a strong correction in training and the net result was that got the cast.”
I think that your use of “obviously” implies that you believe the whistles were paired with strong corrections. Since I have seen the same reactions in non- collar trained or low nick trained dogs, I was suggesting that we couldn’t assume that strong corrections occurred in training. Now you are assuming that because some dogs vocalized after the whistle, it is further evidence of a strong correction in training. Did you ever train with any of those "Red Devil" Goldens in the past? Some of them vocalized on the sit whistle after the smallest and eevn rare correction!" I'm not saying it was happenstance either -I just can't assume I understand what happened in training by watching a dog at a trial.
However, let’s “ass-u-me?” you are correct. Then, using the whistle to help make the dog think about a strong correction is called a “conditioned aversive stimulus”. If you always use the whistle to associate with pain then you could argue it was a conditioned reinforcer which is also sometimes called a secondary reinforcer. Certainly if you "burn first and then blow the whistle" this could be the case! So if you want to label whistles as secondary reinforcers, it could be.- I won’t argue with anyone if that is how they use the whistle. I personally try to use the “sit” whistle primarily more as a communicating device to say, “sit down and let’s talk”. I hope my dogs don’t think they will get burned everytime they hear the whistle!
When we start to fiddle around with repeating stimuli such as whistles and nicks, we move into a whole branch of behavioural science that has to do with reinforcement schedules- ratio schedules, fixed intervals, variable intervals and more!. Frankly I don’t want to go there. You’re all welcome to look it all up. While we change our reinforcement schedules all the time, I haven’t found that studying and labelling all the schedules and being rigorous about them has helped my training that much.
John if I can take a stab at finding a "descriptive" in the op. theory...but eager to see other responses to your question also....
Originally Posted by john fallon
The second immediate toot, becomes a conditioned stimulus (discriminitive stimulus) - for what exactly, depends on the dog. For one the second fast toot might indicate - WHOA change of direction, or Pay Attention, or Don't Get into that Suction...NO!!!!! CAST ??
Where dog's vocalized you could describe the vocalization as a conditioned response to the fast second toot and immediate cast (which the dog has come to associate with e-stimulation in that situation?) - unless it's a gear box of a dog that also happened to vocalize on other unrelated casts and might just be geeked to get going....
How you would describe the second toot cast in behavioral science terminology depends greatly on each individual dog's response.
The terminology doesn't dictate the behavior, the behavior or behaviour change (or complete lack of change) dictates the terminology.
Not sure I made any sense at all, but thanks John, it was fun thinking about and trying to describe....
For those trying to focus on the terminology and attach the labels, it is worth pointing out that "punishment" and "reinforcement" are both defined by the RESULTS.
If your action did not diminish (or make less likely) the undesirable behavior, then the dog did not perceive it as punishment, regardless of your intention. Likewise with reinforcement.
UNLESS, as Wayne suggests, the dog has associated your action with another behavior (behaviour, for the Canadians ;-) ).
This is why it is valuable to occasionally ponder learning theory and reflect on ALL of what is going on. And why it is always good advice to SIMPLIFY when you encounter difficulty.
Thanks for these threads! Good wintertime stuff!
Dennis's discussions on this thread are just examples of his articles in Retrievers Online. Marilyn Fenders articles on the learning process are frequently published in RO. Long time readers of RO know this.
You do subscribe, don't you?
Not directed at me, but just had to day I just signed up received my first issue about a week or so ago (after reading some of Dennis' comments, esp relating to training solo). I am very pleased with the content. Funny thing one I first heard of it a few years ago I thought it was an "online" subscription, in which articles would only be viewed on your computer.:rolleyes:
Originally Posted by lablover
Wayne and JS
Those are great points . Thats what I like to hear. Just as Dennis cannot write a complete analysis over the internet,,,I think that would be called a book or volumes of books on just 1 subject.. Others can fill in other vital pieces of the puzzle with information that helps us better understand what is going on. And things to think about when something doesn't go as expected.
Originally Posted by Marilyn Fender
Love it-and these threads.
Marilyn and Dennis wrote some articles for ROL describing the 4 A's of how dogs learn. Dennis has an article on the learning process with flow charts and a table of field training examples for each of the A's (Vol. VII). I found these articles to be particularly useful to help me understand how dogs learn and refer to them regularly.
The 4 A's
Acquire the skill or behavior
Automatic -practice it until it becomes automatic
Apply- apply this skill in new situations (Generalizing)
Always -maintaining the desired behavior over time
This is awesome stuff. I just commented on Paul Young's post in another thread. This is wonderful material as well!
I frequently think of RTF as a scenario like the email inbox of a modern day corporate executive. He's so busy he has to really pick through his informatioin to find the pieces that matter. IF he's really organized, he'll grab some things that don't matter today, but may matter later. Otherwise he'll glean the stuff of value and sidestep all the chaff.
This is an example of nuggets of value that are out there. It's also an example of an email that hit my inbox long ago, that I'd forgotten!
The challenge is for someone to gather all the nuggets of value TO THEM, and hang on to them.
There's a lot of treasure here on RTF. And yes, Vicky, I did indeed purge the whole database for a few seconds back when I was trying to do a 60 day purge on the lab puppy classifieds. That was ugly and still makes me want to puke!
Many wonderful pieces of RTF memorabilia were lost in that accidental purge.
Luckily this gem by Dennis was not.