Subserveant Pres...

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Originally Posted by Julie R.

........... You had better believe our U.S. Dept. of State knows down to the most miniscule nuance what is and isn't appropriate behavior for every single country we have diplomatic relations with; ............ It's not a question of 'he didn't know better' but another example of his monumental arrogance and casual disregard of the duties that go with the office of POTUS.......

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Very interesting to see how concerned most of you folks are with whether the president bowed to the Saudi ruler. Entertaining stuff.

Speaking of piling on, in your experience Julie and others, what do you think these pictures did to our diplomatic relations a few years ago and were you folks just as concerned then about this breach of protocol and whether the reaction of the administration then was a sign of arrogance????
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ing-on-box.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Ghraib_53.jpg
Similarly, Hew posted:

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The Obama admin should either a) fire their current staff that oversees official protocol or b) actually listen to what that staff tries to tell them.

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Did you think these types of standards applied then too?

Go ahead and chalk this up to "apples and oranges" from a "liberal" if you like, but in all seriousness which of these events do you think has the more serious short and long-term consequences for this country? What the heck, let's throw the IPod gift in the mix just to make the answer more difficult.

Henry,

Why is it that you liberals cannot stay on topic?

The Obama fiasco overseas is about our leader disgracing the entire country...our men and women in uniform, the past fallen heroes who died for the freedom from tyranny, the future generations of young men and women who desperately need a strong leader not a mamby-pamby apologist.

The pictures you showed are disgraceful. However, the president of the U.S. did not do that...some rogue immature individuals did...no where near the same.

If you want to discuss the merits/problems with Obama's actions then that would be cool. Otherwise this is like arguing with a child...pointless!

Keith,
As you point out,

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Originally Posted by Keith Farmer

........The Obama fiasco overseas is about our leader disgracing the entire ountry...our men and women in uniform, the past fallen heroes who died for the freedom from tyranny, the future generations of young men and women who desperately need a strong leader not a mamby-pamby apologist.......

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Please note that there are four pages of discussion about the "bow" of President Obama calling the act disgraceful and beneath the President of the U.S and this nation.
Maybe its just childish me, but I see a direct tie in between my post and previous posts. There is even more of a tie-in given your quote above. In fact, I find it quite ironic that many of the folks that filled up four pages bashing this small act by President Obama are the same ones that continue to discount acts of torture that occurred under the previous administration and commander-in-chief. I was just trying to point out the irony and asked folks some questions.

I'll let you keep this thread on line now so you can deal with the current "fiasco overseas".

Next time, I will just start a new thread titled "so a bow is a big overseas fiasco worth four pages of discussion, what did you all think about Abu Ghraib and torture?", but then again why even do that when you can just compare the responses to this current thread to the responses on a thread like this one http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...d.php?t=33949& and it will become clear that a bow is much worse for this country than torture in the view of the majority of folks here.

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Originally Posted by Henry V

In fact, I find it quite ironic that many of the folks that filled up four pages bashing this small act by President Obama are the same ones that continue to discount acts of torture that occurred under the previous to this current thread to the responses on a thread like this one http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...d.php?t=33949& and it will become clear that a bow is much worse for this country than torture in the view of the majority of folks here.

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If Obomo's bowing to the Saudi king isn't so bad in your opinion, then why are Obomo's people trying to cover it up by saying that he didn't really bow. I guess a big bend over below the shoulders isn't a bow? He bowed and not man enough to admit his mistake.

I guess in your book it is OK to kill innocent people with human bombs, decapitate humans, shoot unarmed civilians but heaven forbid we use waterboarding to get information that might save lives! I'm all for waterboarding when used to protect the lives of our citizens and I'll never be apologetic about it. But hey, we don't have to worry about that because Obomo has already defanged our intelligence gathering agencies and now he is going to finance his social agenda by making major cuts to our military spending.

Just which side are you on anyway?

Barack won't need to worry about a protestor throwing shoes at him, the biggest danger is getting kicked in the chin when he miss times the attempt to kiss their feet.

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Originally Posted by Henry V

Keith,
As you point out,

Please note that there are four pages of discussion about the "bow" of President Obama calling the act disgraceful and beneath the President of the U.S and this nation.
Maybe its just childish me, but I see a direct tie in between my post and previous posts. There is even more of a tie-in given your quote above. In fact, I find it quite ironic that many of the folks that filled up four pages bashing this small act by President Obama are the same ones that continue to discount acts of torture that occurred under the previous administration and commander-in-chief. I was just trying to point out the irony and asked folks some questions.

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Henry,
someone already asked you whose side are you on? and I have to admit this post makes me wonder. Are you SERIOUS?
How about you post up which you think is worse, those photos you posted, or Islamic fundamentalists dragging charred corpses of U.S. servicemen down the streets while chanting "Death to America!" to cheering crowds?

What do you think of Islamic terrorist thugs that behead their U.S. captives and video it so they can flash them all over any news network that will air them? I'm tired of being PC and calling them Islamic whatevers, because people like YOU are more interested in not hurting their feelings when most of them despise us and want to kill us. So what if some low level enlisted men and women mock and humiliate a few muzzie thugs in prison, it's not behavior to applaud or discourage but it is NOTHING compared to what those terrorist thugs do to any American they capture, whether military or civilian.

Click on this link and scroll to photo no. 7 (warning--it's upsetting) and then come back and tell me how awful you think we are in this country. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16532830...mode/1107/s/2/

In fact I think the liberal and media fascination with the Abu Graib incident is disgusting. Sorry behavior for sure, but best handled internally, not in front page headlines and news reports by the court of public opinion. In fact I'd wager that you, like most of your judgmental liberal colleagues, have never endangered a hair on your head defending your country.

And by the same token, you cannot possibly compare a handful of low level military personnel to the President of the United States of America and why would you even want to? He looked like a buffoon and his behavior was more in line than what you might expect of an 18 year old enlisted soldier, not the leader of a (once) powerful country.

Wow, I expected to be called a bush hater (which is also terribly ironic around here because none of us to the left of the extreme righties here are calling anyone an "obama hater" despite the level of conversation every day), but my patriotism questioned, no.

I happen to be one of majority of Americans, like John McCain, who think the fact that this nation's leaders stooped to the level of torture was a terrible mistake with long-term consequences for this country that outweigh any presumed benefits (for poll data see January 2009 ABC poll results summarized at http://voices.washingtonpost.com/beh...n_torture.html or elsewhere like here which I am sure you will enjoy http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i10abcnews.htm). The past administration condoned torture and did not take serious action when it was revealed at Abu Ghraib. Was Rumsfeld fired, no. Any military leaders? Where was all that Republican responsibility and accountability that I keep hearing about here? Oh wait, I know, its in the same place as the fiscal responsibility that always gets talked about. The fact is that the torture and Abu Ghraib incidents were the best recruiting tools that Al Qaeda could have ever hoped for.

Nice attempt by Booty and Julie to suggest that because I pointed out an inconsistency here that I am anti-American or would condone any heinous act against Americans. Sorry, you are wrong and entirely miss the point of my posts. Nice way to try and polarize the discussion though.

Perhaps you don't see the irony/inconsistency/hypocrisy here. That's all I was trying to point out. From what you have written you clearly think that a "bow" is an embarrassment for this country and just more proof that President Obama is not up to the job. At the same time you have also written that torture was OK and even seem proud of it at times. For the record, I see a "bow" as a simple mistake at best with no long term consequence while I see the torture that was condoned by the last administration including the President as a serious error in judgment that is beneath this country even given the despicable acts of some of our enemies. Clearly, we do not see this the same way.

Now for a couple point by point responses.

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I guess in your book it is OK to kill innocent people with human bombs, decapitate humans, shoot unarmed civilians but heaven forbid we use waterboarding to get information that might save lives! I'm all for waterboarding when used to protect the lives of our citizens and I'll never be apologetic about it. But hey, we don't have to worry about that because Obomo has already defanged our intelligence gathering agencies and now he is going to finance his social agenda by making major cuts to our military spending.

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First, exactly how do make the jump from me saying that torture was a bad idea to me thinking its OK to kill innocent people?. Glad you think torture saves lives. The facts do not support your point of view. Exactly how has Obama defanged our intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Julie R.

....., because people like YOU are more interested in not hurting any feelings when most of them despise us and want to kill us. So what if some low level enlisted men and women mock and humiliate a few muzzie thugs in prison, it's not behavior to applaud or discourage but it is NOTHING compared to what those terrorist thugs do to any American they capture, whether military or civilian.

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First, exactly who do you mean by "them" that despise us? It's not at all that I am worried about hurting anyone's feelings. I just do not think it is a good idea make more enemies and recruit more terrorists when there are known alternatives to torture that are just as effective at getting information without the risks.
So what? See above and read the reports related to this. It was a great recruiting tool for Al Qaeda that was not taken seriously by the last administration. You can overlook the facts all you want.

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Originally Posted by Julie R.

In fact I'd wager that you, like most of your judgmental liberal colleagues, have never endangered a hair on your head defending your country.

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Calling ME judgmental is quite funny given the way you phrased the quote above. For that matter, a reference to me or anyone else that questions conservatives here as being "judgmental" is really really funny. Perhaps you should notice that many if not most of the posts on this forum are entirely "judgmental" statements by right wingers about "democrats" or "liberals". Maybe you have just missed this.

On the second point, neither did W or Cheney, did they?. Can we only have an opinion on this topic if we did? Sorry, I did not see the rules.

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Originally Posted by Julie R.

Click on this link and scroll to photo no. 7 (warning--it's upsetting) and then come back and tell me how awful you think we are in this country.

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Could you please point out where I ever said how awful anyone is in this country? Keep jumping to conclusions about my point of view to feel comfortable about your point of view if you need to. You can also keep that revenge mindset to justify torture too.

I am sorry to have interrupt this enlightening thread, I'll just go away again and come back in a few weeks to see all the progress made on this great vacuum chamber of right wing chatter where Jeff and a handful of others periodically bring in facts and thoughtful posts that effectively kill the discussion.

What say you now rosemary?QUOTE]

As you know BBG people can make up anything and put it on the internet. Could this be the difinitive answer to "Bow or not to Bow?'

I just wonder if a person posts a picture of a black man in ladies underwear if that source would be reliable for Presidential Protocol? Just wondering. Maybe maybe not. I would need verification from another source.

Warmest Regards, rm

Check this picture of Bush.

Some say it's not a bow, but a bendover to recieve a medal.

And maybe Obama didn't bow either...maybe he was ducking in case someone threw a shoe.

Or maybe it is a sign of respect and should not be taken out of context. To afford someone the courtesies of their own culture when you are a guest in their country is admirable.

so bush LEANING to get a medal is the same as obama bowing all the way to the dudes waist...my president should bow to no one. Also if you want proof look at the video...its a bow