The biggest difference is that we don't need you. You are useless to us, but you need us. You need people out there being productive while you assert your right to control us.
I realize secession will not happen. It is because so many people are in the middle, i.e. apolitical or just apathetic.
Oh yeah, Jefferson also said -
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. I prefer that we just part company.
Steve and Bruce,
I do want to sincerely apologize for getting hot under the collar on this subject. We likely have irreconcilable differences of the ramifications and meaning of secession. I may not hate Obama as much as you guys do, but believe me, I'm no fan either. But that's why we have term limits. Our Constitution has gotten us through some pretty rough times, these notwithstanding.
Further insults or name calling serve no purpose, and I will RESPECTFULLY back out of this thread now. Hope to chat more with you guys in the RTF, on more agreeable matters,
It is not about Obama. It is about the large number of people in this country who believe in collectivism and are hostile to liberty, who believe they are enlightened and think they know what is best for me, who would call me intolerant, but are unable to see their own intolerance. These people do not believe in our Constitution.
If Obama goes away, these people will still be electing tyrants like Pelosi, Feinstein and Waxman. I do not like the direction these people are pushing our country. Unless something changes, we are heading for a tripping point where we descend into chaos or more likely we slide into a Euro style social welfare state.
The fact is that no one would be happier with secession than those that hate America the most. A split country, with each side trying to figure out how to organize itself while fighting off attacks from the other would either fade into economic and political obscurity or destroy the world in the process. Those with the power, if they are rational, would have to seriously consider "putting us to sleep" before we could hurt others. Beyond that, of course, is the fact that you would be hard pressed to find any state in the country where a majority of people would favor secession or even where a majority of the people would meet your definition of conservative. Presumably those people would either be forced involuntarily to become part of your rebel state or be expelled.
The issue of whether or not the United States of America is a "voluntary association" was resolved conclusively in 1863. We started as a voluntary association. However, it was an all or nothing proposition. All 13 colonies had to join to create a viable country. Since then each state had to make its own voluntary decision to join and then be accepted to be included in the country. There was never a divorce clause (not even for Texas).
Personally, I only know of one part of our laws that addresses questions of secession. It is Article 3, section 3 of the Constitution:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
Your quote from Jefferson came from a letter he wrote from Paris in 1787 to one William Smith. He was talking about an armed insurrection in Western Massachusetts led by Daniel Shay. Jefferson dismissed the rebellion as something that should happen every 20 years or so to refresh the spirit of liberty. That same rebellion spurred the Constitutional Convention to finish its work because of their fear that the spirit of the revolution was being lost in petty acts of anarchy that needed to be stopped.
It's interesting to note that the big push for a stronger national government came from those worried about protecting the rights of property owners from those with less. Madison famously said: "Liberty may be endangered by the abuses of liberty as well as the abuses of power." This was part of an argument for a stronger central government that would be able to put down such insurrections.
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative nut, and my conservative friends all label me as a leftie. I figure that since the truth often lies in the middle (no pun intended), I must be on to something. The important part is that we're all friends at the end of the day.
It would sure suck to need a passport to visit my friends in Texas for dove-hunting.:(
I like the sound of "United States" vs something like American Union or Euro American Union. I am afraid that our current and not so distant past leaders are looking to some grand one world order that if not socialist something really close. I see all these folks talk about the right to free health care, college, and cheese. I keep trying to find tax payer bailouts in the constitution but I guess that page is missing. What ever happened to give them a fish or teach them to fish. Government in public business is far worse than religion in government. We have become servants of the government not the other way around.
I already acknowledged that secession will never happen, but for the fun of it, let's pretend that 50% are capitalistic, freedom loving conservatives and 50% are progressive, left wing statists.