Ladies Only

"Thank God she went to a different state to murder her child?" Cody Covey it is very clear that you have no idea what a tubal pregnancy is. This is one good reason that abortions should never be decided by anyone other than the woman and her doctor. It would not have been her taking a chance for the baby to live, it is a death sentence to a baby to be in the tube. When the tube bursts at a few weeks into the pregnancy the baby dies. If people wait for this to happen a bleed starts that oftens ends the mother's life also. There is no "if", no taking a chance that the baby will live it does not live, never has, never will.

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The OP was looking for input from women and I think this is part of why. Let's hear if women think there is a political war against them and why.

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I don't particularly think there is a war on women politically. I don't think that R's are more inclined to that than D's. I think that there are probably individual men in both parties that may be so inclined.

Gore, Edwards and Clinton may both be D's, but their private actions do not lead me to believe that they treat women with respect. I'm sure there are similar examples among R's.

I don't think we can paint either party with the broad brush on that topic.

On abortion, when it comes to the endangerment of the life of a mother, I can come down in favor of aborting. If a human (and not God) is going to decide which life should be saved (mother or child), then we can only use our human faculties to make such a decision. On a personal level, I come down in favor of saving the mother. Others may equally feel it should be the child. Since, I do not have the wisdom of God, I cannot fault either opinion. I cannot believe as the RC's do that the Pope is infallible since he is still just as human as the rest of us.

I don't have a problem with abortion for rape and incest. I do have a problem with 3rd trimester abortions and killing babies who survive an attempted abortion. If I were present at such an abortion and saw a baby set aside to die, I don't think I could be a party to that. If that baby survived, against all odds, maybe a power greater than ourselves has a plan we cannot fathom?

I think of birth control as averting the beginning of a new life. Same for the morning-after pill. I cannot equate abortion with birth control. For me they are two separate topics. RC's do ... but not all of them. When discussing this with an RC friend, she indicated that in her local parish, the pastor took the position that use of birth control rested ultimately with the individual's conscience. That sounds more reasonable to me.
n't c
If someone could come up with a safe, foolproof form of birth control (either for men or women to use), then abortion would become a moot point! It would have to be something like a once-a-year pill, for either men or women, that didn't cause a significant health risk for the user.

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Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy

I don't particularly think there is a war on women politically. I don't think that R's are more inclined to that than D's. I think that there are probably individual men in both parties that may be so inclined.

Gore, Edwards and Clinton may both be D's, but their private actions do not lead me to believe that they treat women with respect. I'm sure there are similar examples among R's.

I don't think we can paint either party with the broad brush on that topic.

On abortion, when it comes to the endangerment of the life of a mother, I can come down in favor of aborting. If a human (and not God) is going to decide which life should be saved (mother or child), then we can only use our human faculties to make such a decision. On a personal level, I come down in favor of saving the mother. Others may equally feel it should be the child. Since, I do not have the wisdom of God, I cannot fault either opinion. I cannot believe as the RC's do that the Pope is infallible since he is still just as human as the rest of us.

I don't have a problem with abortion for rape and incest. I do have a problem with 3rd trimester abortions and killing babies who survive an attempted abortion. If I were present at such an abortion and saw a baby set aside to die, I don't think I could be a party to that. If that baby survived, against all odds, maybe a power greater than ourselves has a plan we cannot fathom?

I think of birth control as averting the beginning of a new life. Same for the morning-after pill. I cannot equate abortion with birth control. For me they are two separate topics. RC's do ... but not all of them. When discussing this with an RC friend, she indicated that in her local parish, the pastor took the position that use of birth control rested ultimately with the individual's conscience. That sounds more reasonable to me.
n't c
If someone could come up with a safe, foolproof form of birth control (either for men or women to use), then abortion would become a moot point! It would have to be something like a once-a-year pill, for either men or women, that didn't cause a significant health risk for the user.

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I think it's called tubal ligation and vasectomy, and it happens all the time.

And yes.. it should be gov. paid for. Pay for it now, or pay for it later. Simple choice. Do I think it should be elective? Of course. JD

Gerry I agree with your view on abortion in theory only. The problem comes in the application. Are we going to ask women if they have been raped? Wasn’t the rape traumatic enough, now the medical staff has to ask? How about incest? If the victim was not able to ask for help to stop it – how is she going to confess now? Would she be required to confess to medical staff who are usually not trained at all in dealing with victims of violent assaults? What if the staff did not believe her? Would the procedure be denied?

For the women who wants an abortion but was not assaulted, the new requirement would encourage her to lie about it. Would we now prosecute her for perjury?

It is a slippery slope once we start down that path.

On a more personal side, I have two friends who were raped. One by a stranger and one as a young girl by her dad’s boss. Thru them, I have had a glimpse of the pain, the agony, the lifelong guilt and fear that these women have. I would never agree to making any victim of assult have to relive it, recite it, or justify it order to have an abortion.

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Originally Posted by JDogger

I think it's called tubal ligation and vasectomy, and it happens all the time.

And yes.. it should be gov. paid for. Pay for it now, or pay for it later. Simple choice. Do I think it should be elective? Of course. JD

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There is no foolproof birth control. I know of a “sponge” baby, a “condom” baby, and 3 different “pill” babies. The best one was years ago when I had a care attendant in our home to take of my dad (he had dementia). She was about 60 and one day she had to leave early to pick up her daughter. I assumed her daughter was an adult and asked about her. No, she was only 15 years old. At the look on my face she said, yes, the girl was a “surprise” to everyone since she had had her tubes tied 5 years before she conceived.

Scared the crap out of me!!!

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Originally Posted by JDogger

I think it's called tubal ligation and vasectomy, and it happens all the time.

And yes.. it should be gov. paid for. Pay for it now, or pay for it later. Simple choice. Do I think it should be elective? Of course. JD

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But tubals and vasectomies are not always reversible, and I believe there are some health risks associated with both. So for those who have not yet had children, but might wish to have them later, tubals and vasectomies may not work.

IUD's once seemed the answer ... but they didn't work out as planned either.

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Originally Posted by Leslie B

There is no foolproof birth control. I know of a “sponge” baby, a “condom” baby, and 3 different “pill” babies. The best one was years ago when I had a care attendant in our home to take of my dad (he had dementia). She was about 60 and one day she had to leave early to pick up her daughter. I assumed her daughter was an adult and asked about her. No, she was only 15 years old. At the look on my face she said, yes, the girl was a “surprise” to everyone since she had had her tubes tied 5 years before she conceived.

Scared the crap out of me!!!

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Anecdotal and second-hand stories are frequently justifications for behavior not admitted..., Properly performed ligations and vasectomys are seldom reversed...why? You make a choice and you live with it. They are once and final. You always have other choices as well.
Sponges and condoms have failed. But surgicigal procedures rarely do if done properly. JD

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Originally Posted by Leslie B

There is no foolproof birth control. I know of a “sponge” baby, a “condom” baby, and 3 different “pill” babies. The best one was years ago when I had a care attendant in our home to take of my dad (he had dementia). She was about 60 and one day she had to leave early to pick up her daughter. I assumed her daughter was an adult and asked about her. No, she was only 15 years old. At the look on my face she said, yes, the girl was a “surprise” to everyone since she had had her tubes tied 5 years before she conceived.

Scared the crap out of me!!!

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Have heard stories much like the last one a few times also. Bottom line I guess is......"it's not nice to fool with mother nature". And the doc told me he had a patient come up pregnant whoes husband had previously had a vasectomy. Seems he had more more than the usual pair of those little tubes. He had never gone back for the sperm count a few weeks later that would have warned him after the vasectomy, lol.

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Originally Posted by Leslie B

Gerry I agree with your view on abortion in theory only. The problem comes in the application. Are we going to ask women if they have been raped? Wasn’t the rape traumatic enough, now the medical staff has to ask? How about incest? If the victim was not able to ask for help to stop it – how is she going to confess now? Would she be required to confess to medical staff who are usually not trained at all in dealing with victims of violent assaults? What if the staff did not believe her? Would the procedure be denied?

For the women who wants an abortion but was not assaulted, the new requirement would encourage her to lie about it. Would we now prosecute her for perjury?

It is a slippery slope once we start down that path.

On a more personal side, I have two friends who were raped. One by a stranger and one as a young girl by her dad’s boss. Thru them, I have had a glimpse of the pain, the agony, the lifelong guilt and fear that these women have. I would never agree to making any victim of assult have to relive it, recite it, or justify it order to have an abortion.

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Leslie, you make very good points. I appreciate, too, that they are from personal experience, not just theorizing. They are things that I will think about. And, again, I can deal with the concept of the morning-after pill ... which "prevents" a pregnancy, rather than terminates it. I imagine it was likely that the women you mention were too much in shock from their experience to react quickly enough to use that option.

Maybe every woman should have access to the morning-after pill and be instructed on its use?

I still resist a total acceptance of "abortion on demand". A friend of mine, some years ago, accompanied on younger co-worker when the younger woman went for an abortion. She was empathetic to the young woman's dilemma, and (evidently) agreed that abortion was the right solution for this young woman. She was less empathetic when not long after, the same young woman was scheduling another abortion. She obviously had learned nothing from her earlier experience. My friend did not accompany her on the second trip. The only good thing I can say about the second abortion is that anyone that irresponsible (or dumb), probably should not reproduce ... though eventually she probably has done so.

I admit to having an emotional element to the issue of "abortion on demand." When I look at societies which place a low value on an individual human life, I see also societies that place low value on individual freedom. When we don't place a lot of value on an individual life, is it too easy to dismiss an individual life in favor of "the common good"? Then who gets to decide what "the common good" is, and how many individual lives are worth sacrificing on that altar? It's the basic mindset.

I know that doesn't sound pragmatic. It isn't. It's intuitive ... and may be incorrect.

So far there is no foolproof birth control ... though many of them are highly effective. There is always the chance of an "oops" even for those who think they are being careful. Yet ... if people were truly observant in using the birth control that is available, would we have as large an issue with abortion as we do?

On the pragmatic side, $7/mo. for pills seems a lot cheaper & less traumatic than the cost of an abortion ... whether the cost is paid by govt or the individual. Likewise for condoms. Likewise for the morning-after pill.

I can't believe it's not butter...:rolleyes: JD