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Wait!!!!!
let me get this straight..
if a dog didnt mark,,by not going to the AOF and establishing a hunt on its own,,, then does that dog not get a ZERO in marking on that mark?
He didnt mark....
How can he recieve any number other than zero??
Gooser
Agree'd Gooser.
In My Opinion..
All a Handel does ,, is save you,, by meeting the requirement that the dog has to come back with the bird.
In Junior,,, most of the dogs I have witnessed,, cant handel,, so it makes the situation even worse..
The dog didnt mark,,, then the handeler shows his stuff handeling... :):)
The Judges are already gonna have marked on your sheet weather the dog MARKED that fall or not, by the dogs performance of making the AOF..
Gooser
You will have to call Jerry Mann for that one Gooser. When we were in a judges seminar (AKC), he said that in the exact situation that you mentioned, the dog does not receive a score for that mark. He did not say they receive a zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseGooser
technicality, semantics, etc. Yes.
I personally agree with your thoughts, but when you are working with a numerical scale, it is left open for a very large range of what people see. Their AOF may be a lot larger than your AOF. They may feel that the dog started to hunt in the area of fall, but just did not dig back far enough, or went a little too far, and kept digging back, etc. It is not a pass of fail situation, when dealing with a scale of 0-10. It is just that. A scale of 0-10.
Everyone has their own opinion of what the area of fall is. That allows for you to score a 0, and your co judge to score anywhere from 0-10, which in the end, after all marks are thrown, can still get them the wonderful little ribbon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zman1001
I dont think I have to call Mr Mann!! lets just say I am the Judge that day!!!
In your example I quoted,, the dog DID INDEED make my AOF.. The Dog MARKED!!!!!!
Now,,, If the handeler decides to handel to pick up the bird,, then we are going to judge handeling... It better be clean...
The score I give the dog on its mark,, will depend on a bunch of things I will look at while I watch the dog perservere and hunt..
But in your example,, the dog did INDEED mark.. He made the AOF..
if he stays there and hunts for a reasonable amount of time,, but then looks as though he wants to leave,, but the handelr handels,, and the handel is clean,, the dog gets a passing score on that Mark..
The handler HANDELED IN the AOF.. NOT TO IT!! BIG DIFFERENCE.
Its all about making the Particular judges AOF without help..
Gooser
That was my point. It is up to that particular judge to determine the AOF.Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseGooser
By implying that a handle immediately indicates the dog did not mark the fall, is incorrect.
Not all handles are equal.
Again, I agree with your thoughts.
Quote:
By implying that a handle immediately indicates the dog did not mark the fall, is incorrect.
I really dont think I implyed that.
I said,, If you handel TO the AOF,,, the dog did not mark..
If you handel IN the AOF,, the dog marked.
I apologize. wrong choice of words.Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseGooser
But, whose AOF are you referring to. Your AOF, or someone else's?
When I blow my whistle and start handling to a bird, I have announced to the world that my dog didn't mark. If I am handling back to the area then my dog isn't demonstrating perserverence. Tooting on that whistle is a testament. That is how I see it. If the dog is in the area of the fall hunting what kind of DAH is going to handle that dog. If as a judge, dogs are consistantly handing in the area of the fall the question should be why? Are the falls so close that big hunts will cause a switch? Is there a crate of ducks or a bird technician playing on his I phone that pulls dogs away from the fall? If that is the case then judge as fairly as possible. If it is a set up issue learn from it and don't repeat the same mistake the next time you judge.
Marking is of primary importance. To quote Forrest Gump "that is all I have to say about that".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zman1001
I think that is a great question..
My OPINION...
We should all have a pretty good idea of what the size of an AOF should be for a particular mark..
That said.. In JUNIOR.... They are all singles.... the dog only navagates the factors presented on that 1 mark. There is no memory brought into the equation. therefore,, MY PERSONAL belief is the AOF is going to be relativly small.... If that Judge sets something up that throws quite a bit of terrain,, or disrtactions (decoys) ect,, I would think the AOF to be a BIT bigger..
BUT,,, The decision is with the Judge... I personally would not handel a dog in Junior... I would let the dog roll,, hunt the bird,, and t
let the volunteer Judge.. Judge
I wont show my weakness,, and handel a Junior dog..
JMHDAO.
Gooser