I think positive methods are great and many dogs can learn a lot that way. BUT, I can think of very few dogs I have met over many years that were truly reliable off-leash trained strictly PR. So - if you really do want a dog that can enjoy the freedom of running free, swimming etc. that should be a consideration. I think if my dogs were able to talk they would agree that the NR training they had was a small 'price' to pay for the freedom they now have!
That is one thing I wanted for my last retriever, especially in the river or swimming. He had a pretty strong prey drive, took out more than one of the neighborhood cats and would have gone after the first otter he saw. We never let him off-leash in the wild just because I was never confident enough in that recall, so the only 'free' swimming he got was in the pond at the dog park. I guess that's another pro for NR. So far I'm really not seeing many negatives...
Actually, that's ALL relevant material.
Originally Posted by Frybasket
You should really understand what you're asking by studying both Pavlov's Theory of Classical Conditioning and BF Skinner's Operant Conditioning Model.
I would suggest a look here for a baseline of knowledge in obedience training http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=529
If I was going to train for obedience competition, I would primarily use PR, especially if I were new to it. Why? Because while there's not a thing wrong with well thought out PP and NR in a training program, a beginner runs the risk of having certain undesirable traits show up in the dog. In the obedience ring the overall look and spirit of your dog, along with accuracy, is going to score you points. Well done PR work really shines in that venue.
Take the time to listen to the Ellis video. He compares the obedience of years past (NR) vs. today (PR) in the Schutzund ring.
He also presents a very clear, concise communication model to use with your dog. You being new and open minded should try it out. It WORKS!
Oh yeah the fixed post is relevant for sure. Good information. The originally linked thread was talking about how to train a dog to auto-ejaculate lol...I guess still somewhat relevant but more amusing then anything :D
Originally Posted by DarrinGreene
Thanks for the video, looks like great info. I'll watch it later this evening when I'm not at work ;)
talk about a time saver!
Originally Posted by Frybasket
Is PR just as effective for basic obedience? I mean if they are both effective, and especially if I don't need a rock solid fetch, is there any reason to choose NR over PR?
Yes. The answer is up to you and how YOU feel about either.
I've clicker trained my golden to do all sorts of stupid pet tricks (e.g. plays dead when I shoot her - cue is hand as gun and pointing at her). She also hunts (not as much the last few years due to my focus on my lab). And she was e-collar conditioned as well. She helped out a couple of weeks ago, in fact. :-)
You can get "solid" obediance with clicker training for what your goals are. Pick up Spector's book. You'll be fine. http://www.amazon.com/Clicker-Traini...morgan+spector
Do you think Fenton would come back for a treat???
Is any good training program entirely negative or positive? In my completely amatuer opinion (I'm very new to this too!) there is a healthy dose of the positive and negative in what I've seen. As a newbie I came into training thinking the stereotypical things about the tools used and their negative stigmas. Go out and see experienced trainers work with both the positive and the negative and make your own decision. My views did a complete 180 because I quickly realized that I was completely ignorant to what I thought each was and chances are the people who helped me form those opinions were equally ignorant. You have to see it for yourself before you can make a rational decision.
I am a mainly pr trainer, but throw in some minor punishment, too. I have found after much study, watching of videos and reading clicker training books that you can accomplish some major obedience and companion dog goals in a very enjoyable and short amount of time. But either method you chose, you will have to do your homework. Either method will work, but like others have said, you have to know what you're doing.
Good resources to get started are:
1. Do a youtube search for Janice Gunn. She has posted many free videos on youtube that clearly demonstrate clicker/positive methods for training toward an obedience title. She also has a web site where you can see what her credentials are. www.tntkennels.com She is VERY well known for her accomplishments.
2.Clickertraining.com Many books, videos and articles to make it easy for you to learn about the method. It is a Karen Pryor (Mother of clicker training) site.
What I love about it is the speed at which you can teach a dog a new skill. Also, it really creates a neat, fast bond between you and dog. Other methods may do that, too.
Good luck and feel free to ask specific questions. I'm not an expert, but have been studying for a while and may be able to point you to an expert's opinion on a specific issue.
All my dogs run in flat collars around home, on the bike and when I walk. Now for field work different matter. Nothing wrong with a prong. Be sure you can wean your dog of the prong if you are going to do obedience competition. Be sure you learn how to use the prong collar. Discuss this with your instructor. Good luck to you.