2 live birds per entry?

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Originally Posted by Kelly Greenwood

Or say stacking crates of live birds and running the dogs past them on a blind....

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Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore

Well, not a bird crate exactly but, a pile of birds. I've ran my dog right in front of another person's layout blind with a stack of geese next to it many times. Multiple layout blinds. Sometimes we have our layout blinds up to 30 yards apart. Each person stacks their birds to keep count of limits. Wind during goose set ups is always at your back so they'll land into a headwind coming towards you. Often it's easiest, safest and has the least amount of distraction having the dog in the layout blind at the end of the set-up.

If I'm on the left string and a person on the far right knocks a bird down and it sails out further right the dog must pass downwind of multiple piles of birds and multiple layouts. It's a 100% true hunting scenario minus the plastic crate and live birds but, scent and birds? yup. It happens. Just have to get out and hunt fields more often.

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It's a 100% true hunting scenario minus the plastic crate and live birds , and if your aunt had ................:p

With two live birds per dog entered available, there would be more than enough birds available so that a bag of dead fresh kills could be used which would more appropriately fill the bill in your scenario.


Again........" I cannot recall EVER coming across a stack of bird crates full of birds in any of the fields I have hunted."


john

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Originally Posted by Pals

David~ you are right, 2 live birds. And when a club gives you frozen birds from a FT stake 3 weeks earlier, birds that were falling apart, as a judge I want the 2 live birds. We had a flyer station, the guys did a great job. We wanted to use those birds for our next dead bird. We were not allowed to do that, instead we were given the frozen birds. Not only was I not allowed to use the 2 live birds the contestants paid for--my test was stopped twice by a club member and freshly killed birds were taken out of the bag at the dead bird station~in the middle of us trying to run a test. How would you feel Dave?? Or anyone judging? Do you want birds that are blue with skin showing through, rotting as the dogs pick them up or do you want to use the fresh, live birds that you just killed? I know what I saw, I know what I handled, I know the dogs were not thrilled with the birds and I sure wasn't. In all the years I've run and judged, I have never had this happen. And just for the record: some of the frozen ducks were ok, the majority were not. So if my having a fit, getting upset and standing up for the handlers after all that makes me a bad judge or a bitch. So be it.

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Easy to say after the fact, I know, but it seems you missed your opportunity to insist on good birds (or at least birds fit enough for the test) by not declaring as the judge that the birds were not fit for use in your test & having the marshal get fit birds. I'd say you would have a better position of leverage with the club by culling the unfit birds & declaring you needed additional fit birds before preceding with the test rather than trying to determine if the club purchased enough birds per the regs. I'm not defending the club or the marshals or whoever wanted the dead flyers but as the judge you can insist on birds fit for your test (especially when someone seems to be providing unfit birds when fit birds are otherwise available). I don't think you can insist on the dead flyers necessarily but I think you could required fit birds (and there is some distance between dead flyers and unfit birds in most cases).

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Originally Posted by Thomas D

You're right. I'm new to this sport. I need to join some clubs, start gunning some, start judging a little and get to know the game before I complain. One thing I won't do is hide behind a screen name.

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yeah , me too !!! too funny Tom :) What is really the question ?? 2 live birds per entry . The intent of that rule is clear .To provide each dog running with a recently shot bird. To further elaborate on the intent , and to side with John Fallon , no bird crates , no gas chambers. A shot bird is what the dog is to retrieve. hence the fresh blood (this is a blood sport) ragged wing , etc. Because thats real world retrieving . Not everyone at a tower shoot has an open choke ,some times the bird is right on top of the blind b4 you see it , etc ... If I may take the liberty Tom and John , On our behalf , old school regards.

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Originally Posted by john fallon

It's a 100% true hunting scenario minus the plastic crate and live birds , and if your aunt had ................:p

With two live birds per dog entered available, there would be more than enough birds available so that a bag of dead fresh kills could be used which would more appropriately fill the bill in your scenario.


Again........" I cannot recall EVER coming across a stack of bird crates full of birds in any of the fields I have hunted."


john

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No hunt test really replicates hunting but, the concepts however are designed to do so. Look, HRC might sit on a plastic bucket but, when I got hunting I take a chair if I need a seat to sit on. Lol

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Originally Posted by john fallon

Yep, that's a good one.

I'm going to be 70 my next birthday and hunted quite a few of those years,,,,,and you know, for the life of me, I cannot recall EVER coming across a stack of bird crates full of birds in any of the fields I have hunted.

Like I said though, I'm getting old; so maybe I did and I just don't remember;)

john

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Absolutely correct John, however you asked what else the judges could do in a test or a trial with ducks besides shoot as live flyers or dispatch and use at dead station. I have run past many a stack of crates with ducks in it at tests but maybe I don't remember so well anymore either. ;) running a blind is a test of control and running past crates of live ducks really does test control, though as a scenario it really is dumb, but I don't care what the judges set up as long as it is not dangerous, it's just a stupid game we play with dogs..

Every time the dog picks up a flier it runs past a stack of crates. What's the problem?

We appear to be going off topic but while here I would like to make one comment on test design.


Poor nose is grounds for elimination, and tests designed to reward the dog that does not honor its nose are counter productive at best


john

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Originally Posted by john fallon

We appear to be going off topic but while here I would like to make one comment on test design.


Poor nose is grounds for elimination, and tests designed to reward the dog that does not honor its nose are counter productive at best


john

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Poor nose is grounds for elimination, A dog that is out of control or refuses to follow comands/directions/casts is going to be much worse in both the field and a test/trial. I don't think a dog that stops and hunts the 20 odd previous falls on the way out on a blind would be one I would want to hunt with... Blinds should be a test of control and perserverence, if you are using a blind to test Nose on a dog I think that is counter productive. Now running a blind into a trail is a real test of both nose and control, but that is more a NAHRA type test or a real hunting situation and not an AKC type test..

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Originally Posted by john fallon

We appear to be going off topic but while here I would like to make one comment on test design.


Poor nose is grounds for elimination, and tests designed to reward the dog that does not honor its nose are counter productive at best


john

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What about back in the days when you started hunting and they still used live decoys? ehehehee

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Originally Posted by john fallon

..........Poor nose is grounds for elimination, and tests designed to reward the dog that does not honor its nose are counter productive at best


john

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what I wonder, now and then, when a dog runs 49th is it still marking the bird to get to the area of fall or using it's nose and the dragback?