I see no one is really interested in touching this issue because it tends to get complicated once it becomes a problem. Again though, it really comes back to operant conditioning, everything does in the end.
I have a pretty noisy pup so here are some of the steps I've taken along the way to try and make sure I don't have a problem later. These are just stupid common sense things that I think apply to pretty much any dog.
1. She was very noisy in the crate initially. I was very careful never, to ever let her out while she was making noise. I would literally put her int he crate and leave the house, sit outside and read a book until she went quiet, then go let her out. If she got noisy when she saw me I walked away and came back again after she got quiet. Message... Be quiet and I will come let you out.
2. Early on I taught her to sit and focus on her food bowl for a period before being released to eat. Initially this included some whining. I always, every single time waited until she was quiet for at last 3 seconds before releasing her. I extended this over time.
3. She learned in collar conditioning to anticipate the pressure and became vocal. The very first time I heard this I addressed it by mixing up my routine and giving more freebies. She has done it a couple of times in FF and beginning pile work and every time, I simplified, varied my routine and laid off the pressure.
More or less every time I see have seen the behavior since she was 7 weeks old I have employed extinction as a strategy to reduce the noisy behavior and positive re-enforcement to encourage quiet behavior. I've had to employ the strategy multiple times in multiple situations but it has worked each and every time with a bit of patience and thought.
Will it work as excitement levels rise in training? I don't really know but I have tried all along the way to address what I recognized as a potential issue from the moment I got this puppy. She seems incredibly talented otherwise so I would never have walked away from her.
That's a good start, Darrin, never reward being vocal with positive attention. Teaching a pup to be a good citizen in the house is a must. Learning to be quiet in the crate and not barking for food is also great.
It is hard to sum up 5 months of training on a forum thread though, but here is a start.
My description of traditional training: immediately taking new pup out with training group and start throwing ducks and shooting guns with no basic obedience instilled.
Hillmann method: teaching and instilling basic obedience by teaching one command at a time over a gradual time period before introducing distractions.
For me personally, now, I usually take my pups through Bill's puppy program for the first 6 months and then on to the T, double T, water T, and swim by. I want my pup to sit steady and quietly on line while I go out and shoot them a live duck. Then I come back and send them for the mark or a series of multiple marks. Only after they are solid on all of this, do I even attempt to take them out and train with a group.
It usually encompasses their first year before they can do all of this reliably. The whole time they ride with me to trials and training sessions, but must remain on the truck and behave. I will walk them around on lead and with a collar and maintain obedience during this whole time, but they won't get marks. Then about at a year old my pup is ready to go out and be seen by some of my friends online, and I certainly don't start them out on triples. Baby steps.....walk before you run.
I'll x 2 TBell
The Hillman method and those similar will probably produce quieter dogs on a larger scale than traditional methods as a general rule.. It takes a lot of the excitement out of the equation and excitement is often the catalyst. Dogs are expected to behave a certain way from the start. Learn how to build and support drive and lesson excitement.
I once had a pup that developed some vocalization. I tried to stay on top of it. I tried to never allow it to be rewarded. It got to the point where he would only vocalize after being sent. He would not do it every time he was sent. This dog liked to run so it was often with the longest marks. But, he would also do it on what appeared to him to be a long blind.
For several reasons I ended up placing this dog with a program to become a drug detection dog.
Just because the parents have been known to produce dogs that vocalize does not mean they all will vocalize.
If you get a vocal pup and have trouble keeping that under control you might want to consider how long you want to continue with that dog.
Not that I have a ton of cred here but I am using a lot of elements of Bill's program as well, along with things I learned elsewhere. By and large though I'm trying to produce the same result.
Originally Posted by Pete
Don't ever send the dog for a retrieve after it whines. Go back to the holding blind, re-heel to the line and do it over. Use a bumper to lessen the excitement. When the behavior is there, then try dead bird, then flyer. Don't yell at your dog but you might try a "no reward marker" if you believe in their usage.
Originally Posted by DarrinGreene
My response to this is "You Own What You condone." I have had dealings with pups coming out of breedings with the potential to noise, and yet I've never had a noisy pup. I despise noise, so very early on the tendency is addressed, with a no tolerance policy ( no whimper-no whine-no talk) and the dog learns to remain quite, as the dog learns not to bite, and learns to not get on the couch, etc. It is much easier to do with a puppy, and much easier to do with a personal dog. I have had dealings with pups learning noise from other dogs, where you have to address an issue that is already ingrained, a lot of these dogs are unaware they are even making noise. While it is possible to revert them to some point, it would have been better if the habit was never allowed to develop. If you choose to go with a breeding that might throw noise because you like the breeding, at least you are already aware and will be vigilant in watching for it, thus less likely to let little things go, and develop into a problem. Still more likely than not you'll worry about it, go through a lot of proofing to prevent it, then end up with a natural church mouse, who would've never made a peep, pups are individuals after all.
Thank you for all of your responses. Hillman videos weren't out when I got my last dog, I'll have to add his to my collection. I gather from everyone's posts that just as Barney said.... "you gotta nip it in the bud!"
Noise is something I worry about everytime I get a new pup. To me too noisy is a simple whine.
[QUOTENot that I have a ton of cred here but I am using a lot of elements of Bill's program as well, along with things I learned elsewhere. By and large though I'm trying to produce the same result.][/QUOTE]
Your correct in what your saying,,,,but the way I read the original poster was ,the OP was looking for a program which discourages whining. I know when excitement is lessoned whining usually lessons also.. Figuring that out is what its all about. You have plenty of cred. I just read the OP a little different or something. Yum Yum my ducks are done. Slowly sauteed spuds and onions,asparagus and cheap read wine. And a glass of sharp apple cider.