Any one person running more than 3 dogs in the Am stake could be considered a non-amateur. It takes away the whole spirit in which the Amateur stake is about.......IMHO.
It wasn't meant that people can't own more than 3 dogs, just can't run more than 3 in any one Amateur. When have you ever seen David Aul, Kippy Swingle, and the other elites out judging, marshaling, riding 4 wheelers setting up tests, shooting flyers, or working a national? That is who the AMATEUR stake is was created for.
BTW I also have never seen Lanse run all four of those dogs in any ONE Amateur event.
you ducked the question...would you have considered Lanse a non Amateur since he had 4 dogs eligible to run the Amateur...as for Dr Aul and Ms Swingle they may not ever work a trial but without their combined 20 entries X 20 trials,they help fuel the game by their owner participation..I cant speak for the other so called "elites",because I am not sure that what you consider an elite, I consider the establishment;-)
Originally Posted by TBell
Not ducking the question. True AMATEURS don't have 4 dogs to run in the AMATEUR STAKE at one time. I have never seen Lanse run ALL 4 of those dogs in ONE AMATEUR STAKE at one time.
NOBODY can truly know if Lanse, or any of the other elites, receive 'compensation' for training dogs. It would take a private detective to get the facts and then an attorney to prove it in court which is where a Field Trial Committee would be if they ever declared one of the 'elites' a pro at an event.
I am simply saying make the definition of the AMATEUR STAKE simple and enforceable by saying a true AMATEUR will not run more than 3 of his/her dogs in any one AMATEUR STAKE. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY CAN'T OWN 20 DOGS and run them in the OPEN or other Amateur events all ove the country. Then they can have their whole truck of dogs qualified for the NATIONAL AM.
BTW I have never seen David Aul or Kippy Swingle run a dog in the Am but they can certainly co-own a dog with another Amateur who can then run it in Owner/Handler Amateurs. Is this really where we want the sport to go with co-owned trucks of dogs? It is crossing a fine line.......
did a quick check and the first two trials I looked at
Brazosport RC- has Rex Gibson with 4 dogs entered in the Amateur
Middle Tenn ARC - has Alex Washburn with 4 dogs entered in the Amateur
I do not know Mr Gibson but do know Ms Washburn....in a day when FT's seem to have less participation, why on earth would we want to discourage people like this from coming out and entering our trials
and knowing Lanse like I do, it may just prompt him to bring Eva and Sophie out of retirement for one week just to prove that he can indeed enter 4 dogs in the Amateur stake ;-)
You mean less workers, not less participation.
And Bon, down here as Tammy stated, I don't think I have ever seen Lanse run all four in the Am.
BON, it is NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. We don't care if Alex or Rex enter our home trial. All we want to do is run our dogs and work an AMATEUR that IS FAIR AND SPORTING.
Do those two people work events, shoot flyers and judge?
CORRECTION: Rex does judge hunt tests. Don't know him though.
The last trial Alex judged was ONE 2011 and ONE in 2010. She ran over 25 trials in 2012.
It should be the CLUB MEMBERS, WORKERS AND FUTURE JUDGES that we are worried about, not the participants. We don't want to chase someone around a field trial with 4+ dogs in the OPEN, AM and QUAL or worse yet have judges and workers sitting around waiting for them to show up and run their dogs.
I could go on.... but there are many others that are feeling the same way.
I have nothing to add to this discussion except that I know Rex Gibson. As Tammy stated, he judges and runs hunt tests. He has been a working member of Brazosport RC as well as Greater Houston Golden RC for many years. Rex has a career as a corporate attorney. He has chaired events, shot flyers, marshaled, and done anything and everything that has needed to be done at the tests. I think he has recently begun running field trials. If he owns and maintains 4 or more dogs capable of doing the work, why shouldn't he be allowed to enter them all as an amateur? It seems that it would give a handler a better chance to possibly take home a ribbon.
I feel the real test as to whether a person is a pro is the acceptance of compensation for training or handling dogs, not how many dogs they own and handle.
Tammy when Clint was a broke college grad student, nothing , I repeat nothing inspired him more than to compete against the Crows, the Weiss' and the Belmonts and yes even against the Lanse Browns of the world..he went to med school because he knew it would ultimately be the only way to feed his FT habit, he even entertained becoming a pro trainer, but the thought of taking orders from those that he yearned to beat stopped that notion...
Originally Posted by TBell
my point being the FT game is not fair, its has never been and never will be EXCEPT for one place..the field trial itself, on the place of battle, at the line...
I have been hearing for the last 30 years from people in the gallery and beyond and sometimes even at home, comments like yours and others saying stuff like " if I had _______ type of money I could compete like they do" or " If I was like Lanse and trained dogs all day I could compete with him"...its all hogwash...people cant compete with the elites of the game's lifestyle, unless you hit the lotto or some other financial windfall one can never match their financial resources...but you can compete with them on the field and if you are good enough and your dog is up to the task sometimes you not only compete but you win...as John Luther used to tell us when Clint would compete against multiple dog entries from the heavy hitters of the day " they only give out ONE blue ribbon, make them use all four of their dogs trying to beat your dog to get it"
and FTR the real reason Lanse doesnt run all the dogs in the Amateur...its not an efficient way for him to use his funds..He actually plans to leave this world dead azz broke....plus in the case of Sophie and Eva, Amateur placings do him virtually no good since the dogs already have their AFC...he figures that by placing in Open's its like double staking the dogs because points earned count toward qualifying for both Nationals..now that Nora has qualified for the NARC she will not run any Am's until fall..Rosa is running Am's because Lanse is trying to win and qualify her too
I find your arguments the same as the folks who came in, took, did nothing for the sport & left. To a point I agree with Tammy's presentation - there is a reason the owner handler Am was instituted & through poor oversight has been allowed to deteriorate, which IMO is to the detriment of the sport.
Originally Posted by BonMallari
Lanse & your brother, for the most part, train their own dogs from puppies - I am familiar with Lanse's regimen & believe I know some of the reasons why, but it's no different than what he did when fully engaged in the working world - Rosa would have a sibling running mate if early on she had not been ID'd as not having the necessary bottom :). Sophie was a once in a lifetime opportunity. The fact that Lanse & Clint hit the success jackpot is also against the odds, regardless of how well prepared they were.
The other recently competitive folks you talk of mostly buy their dogs or are serial co owners. A chessy was run at ID many years back that had 5 co owners for that trial, wonder if the paperwork was submitted :rolleyes:? I judged at ID & one of the Am's had 9 dogs in a 51 dog entry, his pro was told there would be an honor in the 1st series & we would only be using one bye dog at the end. To their credit they got all dogs there on time & in order. I've seen too many trials w/o an honor due to more than 1/2 the dogs in the last series being with one handler. The way trials are run today & with large individual entries, judges have to be prepared for the possibility that the majority of dogs in the last series will have one handler. I believe an honor to be an essential part of Non-Slip :).
These type of discussions will go on forever..................and those that get the most heated over how many dogs someone else is running or what dog so and so is running should spend more time worrying about the dogs in their own kennel and less about other peoples dogs.
If these same individuals being crucified for having too many dogs entered had never been successful no one would keep track of their dogs or care how many they were running.
This remind of me of one saying in particular, "Jealousy is an evil emotion, watch how it affects you and those around you".