How will the union supporters spin the Hostess situation?

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Originally Posted by Buzz

I disagree. I'm not suggesting he challenge the professor in front of the class. I'm suggesting he take advantage of his professor's office hours to ask questions, challenge him respectfully, and try and understand where he is coming from. My bet, this interaction will most likely enhance his grade and his education.

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And I respectfully dissagree with you on this. Two people that I know did just what you are suggesting. I would never suggest to any student of any age to bring up a possibly negative view to any teacher/prof etc. Those grades are going to follow you the rest of your life if you are a student. We can say what we think and feel in most settings but not at school. A family member, who is by the way more tactful than I am, found out the hard way about this. Got to be carefull how we advise the young who are still in school.

I actually agree with Charly

Having said this...I don't think what the professor said is wrong or political. As usual the right is trying to make it that way...just business. Bad management driven by bad capital structure and the workers suffer the most....nothing new.

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Originally Posted by charly_t

And I respectfully dissagree with you on this. Two people that I know did just what you are suggesting. I would never suggest to any student of any age to bring up a possibly negative view to any teacher/prof etc. Those grades are going to follow you the rest of your life if you are a student. We can say what we think and feel in most settings but not at school. A family member, who is by the way more tactful than I am, found out the hard way about this. Got to be carefull how we advise the young who are still in school.

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There is a real problem here. You are suggesting that when the chips are down one should "go along to get along". If the student feels strongly, and if some research is done to get the facts, my feeling is stand up in class and take your best shot. If the professor is honorable, honest discussion should be welcomed. If not, perhaps the administration needs to hear or, if a public institution, even the legislature.

Having been on both sides of the desk, I have often challenged a prof when something he said didn't make sense to me. I did not do it unless I had done my homework so as to make a valid defense of my ideas. There were times I was assigned a paper on the subject, but I never lost a grade because I brought the challenge.

Similarly I never held a student in a in disregard that challenged me. Hopefully, it lead to a discussion that would benefit the students in a class I was teaching. Never can I say I was subjective to the point I would give him a lesser grade for the attempt.

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Originally Posted by HPL

There is a real problem here. You are suggesting that when the chips are down one should "go along to get along". If the student feels strongly, and if some research is done to get the facts, my feeling is stand up in class and take your best shot. If the professor is honorable, honest discussion should be welcomed. If not, perhaps the administration needs to hear or, if a public institution, even the legislature.

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You bet your bottom dollar there is a problem ! My son lost a letter grade for every day he was absent that year after he talked to the teacher. You can't fight some things. That little rule was on the books so they could punish students who skipped school. It was not meant to be used for what that teacher was using it for. All people are not fair so I would never tell a student to question a teacher/prof. We could argue right and wrong all day about this but it won't change a thing. School board was notified, lawyer consulted. There was nothing we could do.

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Originally Posted by zeus3925

Having been on both sides of the desk, I have often challenged a prof when something he said didn't make sense to me. I did not do it unless I had done my homework so as to make a valid defense of my ideas. There were times I was assigned a paper on the subject, but I never lost a grade because I brought the challenge.

Similarly I never held a student in a in disregard that challenged me. Hopefully, it lead to a discussion that would benefit the students in a class I was teaching. Never can I say I was subjective to the point I would give him a lesser grade for the attempt.

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For the most part I agree with you...But with that said people tend to think a little different regarding anything political, and despite what Menmon states this is political because it has an issue of unions around it. Whether the right or left is correct in this instance regarding unions telling someone their political view is incorrect (even if not really meant that way) is not a good idea. In other contexts I believe you are right. I went to school as a Network Admin and it was frequent we would find little things wrong with the book or our teacher and of course he gracefully accepted the change. But politics and unions especially are a different beast imo.

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Originally Posted by twall

The workers were forced into ownership of the company, and that was a bad thing?

The unions were not the entire reason, but a contributing factor, to the demise of Hostess in its' current form. I could see not wanting to own part of a sinking ship. However, if I owned part of it I would be much more willing to bail faster.

Lowe's is an ESOP. While new hires are not going to make as much as some of the first employees did from the ESOP, they still have a stake in the company.

I work for a company that become an ESOP about the time I started. We are still in the process of buying out the owners of the company. We are at the point where the ESOP owns more of the company than the original owners. Stock value is increasing. People are starting to realize they have an impact on the bottom line. You can now look at someone and say that is costing all of us money.

Tom

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Tom,

Workers didn't want the ESOP. Now, the stock they took in exchange for wages is worthless. So, yes, it was a bad thing. I have seen it several times before when companies force an ESOP on employees. It saves the company money, but rarely benefits the employees. It usually works better when the employees or employee union voluntarily negotiate an ownership program.

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Originally Posted by Ken Bora

I was chatting with our bread delivery guy about this the other day. He is an independant. Owns his truck and rout. Has a couple other brands on his truck other that the primary. Lots of bakery and drivers do this. If a truck is going to a store every morning, and has some empty space it just makes sence. Anyway, he was saying he could never add hostess cakes because of the union hostess workers used. The twinkies had to be on hostess trucks. The driver HAD to have a "puller" a second guy, not work alone. It is a Union lifestyle, my bread guys words. That is more than just the workers or the corperate bosses earnings. But how they have to do stuff. Instead of a lean and mean independant driver like my bread guy they, by the union they chose worked fat and happy. Again my bread guys words. And lean and mean beats fat and happy all week long and twice on Sundays! Just the way of the world.

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Ken,

I believe workers are entitled to a safe and healthy working environment. I don't think the answer is to get rid of workers that want a safe environment in favor of workers or independents that are willing to work in less safe conditions. Again, I don't know this was the reason Hostess drivers wanted a 2nd person onboard, but it seems likely.

Now the truth comes out. Hostess's board ousted CEO Brian Driscoll in March, 2012, after it was revealed his salary was tripled to $2.5 million at the same time he demanded steep pay cuts for workers.

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Originally Posted by Blackstone

Ken,

I believe workers are entitled to a safe and healthy working environment. I don't think the answer is to get rid of workers that want a safe environment in favor of workers or independents that are willing to work in less safe conditions. Again, I don't know this was the reason Hostess drivers wanted a 2nd person onboard, but it seems likely.

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That point can be argued from both sides, but what about the fact that even if certain products (wonder bread and Twinkies for example) are made at the same bakery they had to be delivered to the retail locations on seperate trucks per the unions?
Why send 2 trucks rather than one? Just from a fuel expense angle it is not a good business practice.