On the noise issue, single marks only.
Noise, no mark.
Re throw until quiet, then dog gets mark and praise for quiet.
May have to do this several times until dog is quiet at line.
But eventually he will get it.
IMO praise reinforces the experience.
It worked for me........but I am not an expert trainer by any means.
I do know a little about this issue.:cool:
I would also add that if this issue is somewhat rooted in genetics this could be around for the dogs entire life.
We run lots of singles until quiet is acheived, then run multiples.
Marking and memory are 2 seperate skill sets any way.
We run probably 80% or more singles.
I believe the dogs name is "Butter" or "Jelly"??????? Pretty calm to me! lol
Randy is being the Professor......he's the best at this problem......he is teaching through this thread!
Meleagris, Mike first tried the conventional stuff like "sit, stick, sit" or "sit, nick, sit" and various other things that didn't phase her in the least. The way Mike got to my dog on creeping was the instant she moved on the mat, he picked her completely off the ground by the collar and used the heeling stick across her chest several times while saying sit. He then put her back on the mat without letting her retrieve, and called for another bird and if she moved, she got the stick treatment across the chest again. All the while he was reducing the excitement on the throw, by removing the shot, shortening the throw, etc. He said he need a successful mark to teach her what we wanted, ie no noise, creeping and a retrieve. It must have taken 15 or more throws before she got sent the first time. Again, as with the noise, I continued the creeping work everyday for at least a month before I ever took back training with a group. I just used a remote launcher and worked alone on this. She is pretty solid now on sitting still on the mat, but even a year later, I still have the heeling stick and am still watching her close for movement. Once in a while I will still get a correction on creeping and still do the stick on the chest thing and denying the dog the retrieve. Also, I train once in a while with Jerry Patopea and he is well aware of her line manner issues, so when I am with him, the dog still spends a good 30-45 minutes in a holding blind while other dogs run before she is allowed to the mat. Hope this helps.
Randy I am anxious to hear just how you fixed this in just 5 days. Dont know for sure what you would do in a step by step procedure. Some of what has been posted I like some I dont.
I have some knowledge of what you do through someone else that you have helped. I think it stems from ob. Dogs such as this need to be held to an extremely high standard of ob and need to trust and respect the handler as part of the team. Basically I consider it indirect training. By working and perfecting one thing it gives the dog more to concentrate on so if the dogs mind is occupied with the task at hand it forgets about the noise. Dogs such as this need to be challenged. With my dogs (one of which I have this problem) it starts at the kennel. She is 2 1/2 and is occaisionally slightly noisy in training but explodes at a trial, I might ad that she is a pretty talented little girl. She basically doesnt make a move unless I give her permission. She sits and doenst leave her kennel until released. She sits and doesnt touch her food until given the ok. There is a routine for everything. Out training when it is her turn the crate is opened in the truck but she does not come out until I go to the tail gate and call her. Then she comes to the tail gate and sits to have the collar put on then she is called to heel then released to air. At any of these steps if there is noise or if I have to give a command more than once we go back a step and do not progress until it is done right and without so much as a whimper. Right now I am working on a linning drill and perfecting pushing and pulling on line with me as this is mostly where the noise exists. She moves with me well but not to the level she needs to. I am guilty of accepting less than perfection. I am also working on this with my 5 yr old. I have jammed a few opens with her but she has developed a creeping and breaking problem. I am hoping that perfecting her manners on line through this linning drill will translate to a trial by creating team work by perfecting disapline. I believe that the noise, creeping, breaking etc. is all about the dog being self employed more than a team player. So I am hoping teaching the dog to become more of a team player it will indrectly take care of my problems. Hope this makes sense as I am not well versed at putting my thoughts to words.
I am seriously watching this thread trying to learn all I can on this issue because I have two very talented dogs that would be much much better without these problems.
FWIW I was joking about selling the dog. I have one of these dogs and I have tried everything under the sun to get a handle on it. I've spoken with Randy more than once over the phone about the issue. I have highly considered putting rowdy with randy to try and get the issue resolved. Like others I am interested in knowing what was done to help in such a short time. Noise is not my dogs issue but creeping and line manners in general. To me they are pretty much one in the same though. Bring on the answers.
For the people in this thread that mention there dogs having creeping and breaking problems--how did it get started. What did you do (or not do) to allow the behavior to become ingrained. I was anxious to get an HRCH title on the dog I mentioned. I was successful with that and we never dropped a test in HRC--the problem is he got away with creeping and bouncing around at the line. I could control it to an extent because you can talk to your dog in HRC. He has broken in the last couple of master tests we have run. I created the problem, not the dog. I would gladly give back that HRCH title if I could undo the monster I created. On the bright side it taught me a lesson. I learned that is not a road I'm willing to go back down with a dog. My next dog juice has had excellent line manners, he ran 7 derbies in 5 or 6 weekends this fall. He sat nicely for 6 of the 7 and at the most would pick his butt off the ground a little. That was the worst of it--in the 7th derby things changed. He seemed a little higher than usual, he stayed on the mat in the first but I could tell we were getting loose. My mind set went from wanting to win the derby to making sure we got out of there without causing any problems that would haunt us down the road. He crept off the mat with the first bird and by the time the second bird hit the ground he was about 2 feet in front of me. We picked up and went home--everyone including the judges wanted to know what I had picked him up for. It was simple, I've ruined one dog and thats enough for now. Disclaimer: if it had been the 4th series and we had a good chance to win--I still like to think I would have picked up. I don't know that for sure though, haha.
PM sent re my solution.
Just recently addressed this issue with my pup and much of what I did came from the original post.
Pup started barking, biting and doing back flips for puppy marks in the hall at 12 weeks. Kept giving marks until he did not want to bring them back at approximately 16 weeks. Stopped all marks and did 100% obedience for 2.5 months with the occasional test mark to see if problem persisted and it did.
At seven months started re-introducing marks. Good results with heavy pre-training exercise and obedience lesson(mostly stick work) prior to marks. Only a few marks and re-bird for any noise or movement while on lead.
Now almost at nine months and the pup is as steady as I want him at this stage but still a little cautious about using bumper boy (gun fire) or duck calls (so far all hand thrown marks by me or a helper).
Mostly yard mark with a few test marks in the field.
May be taking it a little slow but I am very concerned about the noise issue. Not sure if I created the problem with the puppy bumpers. Pup was pick of the litter and I chose him because he blew all the other pups out of the water (11 of them) with his desire to mark and retrieve at 7 weeks.