I would rather not knock the dog out of drive with obedience just prior to running, but rather, teach him to behave appropriately when he's high as a kite.
Originally Posted by dpate
I'll admit, Tammy's right and there are a TON of people here who do exactly that. Lots and lots of obedience. It works. Did for my last dog for the most part, until we ran too many tests in a row once and then we had a problem.
Just an opinion and slightly different way of looking at things. Whatever works works.
If your basic program obedience is good at home meaning here is here, sit is sit, heel is heel then it's time to take it to the field. Most people in the dog world cause their own noise and out of control issues because of multiple commands starting at home. 15 years ago when I first started training dogs the big question in the dog world was do you keep your dogs in the house or out?? Reason?? Because people drop standards in the house...
Caution...there are two sides of the fence in a pups brain the fun side and the other side where we teach cc,ff, etc. If you start combining both worlds in the field to quickly you will ruin a young dogs attitude.
Appr. 7 days ago the fix process began....more to come
It really is very individual from dog to dog. You have to balance tests and training with behavior. Poor behavior stop testing....immediately. This means moving just one foot!
Yes, very hard to differentiate in the dogs mind between obedience and being a house dog. It is an extreme balancing act. Attitude also comes from 'balance' between field work and obedience. I am still a newbie at this, but I think I have a better grasp.
The dog apparently had no respect for the owner so I made the dog aware that we actually did exist in the retrieving world:
1) DO NOT let your dog push and rush you to get the collar on his/her neck..jump out of the truck and take off running around being a bad citizen...We made the pup sit calmly first and then collar went on him, when he decided to become unruly the process started over again until the pup gave in and sat in a calm attentive way. People always ask how long did that take to accomplish?? Patience...as long as it takes is the answer, why do you think people use harsh methods to accomplish this?? ...why don't majority of pro trainers tackle hard cases like noise?? TIME!!! Control your temper and realize that your in for a battle of wills, had 1 dog come in for line and noise issues and it took him 45 minutes to figure out he wasn't going to get away with not sitting in remote position 4 ft. from me on a leash..
Step 2) New standards applied around the truck.. It was called sit and do nothing until your quiet..off the truck it's time to rock and roll in his world...Gave him the command of sit and walked away a few feet and of course he got up..took control of the dog and gave a sit correction, what level is up to you and your dog in the field to accomplish what you wanted him to do in the first place.. This has to be done 100% or your wasting time...dog thinks he won again.
Once we won the initial battle of sit,stay we walked farther away from him and of course obedience fell apart again...so back to the point of failure and a sit correction given again...Keep in mind your goal IS NOT to get marks until your dog is paying attention to you so your first day out may or may not be a marking day for your dog.
Originally Posted by DarrinGreene
I see you know Michael Ellis's stuff from your past posts so do you not agree that obedience can actually put a dog into drive?
I am a new trainer so I don't have the 100s or 1000s of dogs that the pros have to base this off but I really believe that it is not the obedience that take the drive out of dogs, its the corrections they get when their obedience isn't 100% while retrieving. That is something we as trainer have control of (don't put dogs in position to fail/be corrected). I have a very high drive dog who I don't believe has ever had a correction on the line. As a very young pup, I taught sit with marker/treat, when that was 100% I moved to a higher distraction environment, When that was 100% I twrilled a bumper around, if she sat calmly, marked/treated and that continued until we were were throwing bumpers and she sat calmly. No corrections if she made a mistake, simply denied retrieves or denied treats. If she got it right, mark/reward (with treat or retrieve). The dog was in drive for obedience and in drive to retrieve. No corrections = no loss of drive.
Again, I'm no expert but it worked with my high drive dog who tends to be noisy outside of retrieving. What are your thoughts?
EDIT: I see this only working wth young puppies.
Step 3) Release the dog to air and loosen up walking away from the line...call the dog back to the truck and now walk towards the line together at a controlled heel...that could be another 45 minute task to accomplish, when you feel your blood pressure rising just stop and stand still awhile, breath deep and go at it again.
When your 15 yds from line or the holding blind stop and put your dog at a sit, when your sure the dog is ok to leave, walk away, you now just made your dog responsible for his actions on his so called play ground. He gets up he gets a sit correction...he creeps forward he's placed back to the point of failure, he breaks while watching other dogs running correct as you normally would for a break. When we did this with our noisy 10 month old he sat and watched and whined..barked..whimpered..you name it he did it. Translated he was saying I don't like this...it's all about me..unless the dog moves ignore it. The barking/whining went down to a slight whimper but it took about 30 mins. He finally gave in!! He laid down and started eating grass, pistols going off and he was eating grass, awesome, we broke him like a wild stallion without the whiffle ball bats, crops and all that other stuff, we got into his brain...to be continued
Thank you very much for your step by step approach to this problem.
2nd that! Thanks Randy! Great stuff.
Step 4) Proceed at a heel towards the line when the dog settles down, as long as the dog remains under control take him to the line BUT put him in the honor box. You can stay with the dog or sit down nearby up to the individual. Same rules apply no moving..creeping...breaking..if he makes noise (and he will) ignore it, it will go away and hopefully quicker than the last time. When he behaves walk over to the dog and pretend that it's his turn to retrieve and when he becomes animated go into obedience mode, 360 degree heel drills, back up, side step,anything where he has to pay attention to you and not the excitement in the field. High standards apply here for sure, collar by your knee at all times. When you made your point return him to the honor box and sit down nearby and watch the dogs reaction...priceless...oh yeah still no bats or whips, all mental break down for the dog...Boot Camp!! to be continued...