British Labs / No Force????

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Originally Posted by leemac

I would have liked to have replied earlier but here goes.

First off steve schreiner, this isn't a bash to you but more of a response from a former "meat dog" man who now wants to have the best retriever possible.

Here's the scene.

Flooded rice as far as the eye can see. 100 acre zero grade field in front of the pit blind. 100 acre zero grade behind the blind, but there is a wide (for north east Arkansas) levee directly behind the blind. If 100 acres zero grade has a couple to three inches of water on it, it looks like a 100 acre pond.

Two ducks come in straight from in front of the blind at Mach 2. Both are easily in range before they are seen but because of there speed they are both passed the blind before they are shot. They are so close together when shot so the land only about five feet apart. The dog see's the birds shot but the actual fall is well beyond the last place either of us can see the birds. We have to get out of the blind and onto the levee to pick up these birds as blind retrieves.

The left duck is stone dead with one wing standing straight up on the wind like a flag. The right bird is only a few feet away, with its head up slightly. My dog locks on the birds and I cue her up and let her go. She leaves the levee and launches into the field that has a deep ditch before you reach the inches deep expanse of running water beyond. As she crosses the ditch, the right bird drops its head and begins to scuttle off, trying to hide straight away from me and my dog. I quickly realize that we will have to pick up the cripple first if we will ever find it. I stop my dog short of the dead, flagging bird and give her a big verbal back away from it. She complies by taking the cast for three steps and then heading again for the left. A battle ensues. I get her within a few feet of the cripple but she is unsure because the obvious dead bird is behind her and the wind isn't in our favor. If I could go out and simplify I would. I lose her and we get only the dead bird.

To make a long story short, I've since starting training on poison birds for this reason. The pro that helped me showed me how to train on this without pressure, except for lack of effort in doing the task at hand which is taking the cast given, no matter the distraction. I asked earlier if dogs can be trained to do this at distance on a regular basis, with out force fetching, pressure, aversive, or even purely positive training methods I would be interested in these methods that sound a lot like how I trained before I learned of our modern Rex Carr based methods. I wasn't as successful before I was enlightened.

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If you want more out of your dog, go for it ...You must admit that hunting is different in the rice fields than in the flooded timber with a pool of only 50 yards across...I'm just saying hunters have different requirements of their dogs...and ht'ers vs ft'ers ....A timber hunter doesn't need 200 or 300 yard blind work ...What difference does it make if a dog does a 100 yard blind with 8 whistles or 2 ? Only in playing games does it matter...Robert Milner's book for the duck hunter has put out many dogs that worked just fine for hunters that didn't require extremely long or complicated work .... Just as John mentioned if you are going to be competitive at the FT game in this country you better use the best ( proven ) method of training dogs to that level ...A non force system ( reward only, no compulsion) will take longer and need more frequent reminders over the long haul to get the same or very similar results.. The Brits have different needs as mentioned earlier too...Their methods work for them and that is all that matters over there...Steve S

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Originally Posted by Swack

Eug,

I too was appalled at the bad manners of my fellow Americans. Many of the early posts on this thread were slamming the subject and wondering how many pages would be "wasted" on the topic. If they hadn't jumbled up the thread with their moaning we wouldn't have had so many pages half filled with worthless commentary.

We should be able to discuss differences in our training methods and breeding selection criteria without resorting to insults. I think many American Lab lovers lack an understanding of the history of the breed and are unable to appreciate the ways in which our trials (and therefore our dogs and training methods) differ from one another. It is sad that ignorance is so pervasive in our country, but it appears to be a fact based on the recent elections.

Regarding the subject of humor, your jab was the only one at which I laughed out loud! It wouldn't be funny if it weren't TRUE! I value good canine manners and my own fitness. Maybe I'm just skinny enough to see the truth in your humor.

Regards and Support from across the pond.

Swack

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Swack ...I guess I'm cut from very similar cloth as you ...I laughed too .....Steve S

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Originally Posted by leemac

Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?

British or American or Chinese is of no consequence.

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Yes, got a trio of them in Idaho......

Here is a little exercise taught to me by the late Roy McFall...He would have me put a squawking banty rooster in a round cylindrical pen/cage...I would then walk/heel the dog past the banty on the way to setting a sight blind...the dog would inevitably take a look or even wind the bird, at which time I would tap the dog with a heeling stick and tell them "leave it"

Now I set the sight blind a good 75-100 yds past the rooster but to where the dog has to "shave the nose " of the rooster on the intended line...as we walk back to the line on the same exact line, I again remind the dog that the rooster is "off limits"

I will then run the sight blind...if the dog hangs up or sucks to the rooster we make a correction..sometimes the sequence will have to be repeated or even variations where a banty is thrown right off the line...the dog is told to leave it, and sent for the blind

and FTR ..We train without a collar and no FF..we do however teach a type of force hold, I do not use a stock prod, rat shot,or a slingshot...I do not use M&M's or treats (except for little parlor tricks)..I do not beat my dogs nor brutalize or abuse them..I will use a heeling stick, a short rope..I do not use force to make the dog go...I use the attraction of the bird/prize to pull the dog to its desired location...

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Originally Posted by hotel4dogs

ahem....I'll try this again....
does anyone know what kind of water retrieves you would see at a British field trial?

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A number between none and one. The one - "the" water retrieve - is a requirement at the IGL championships, the UK national held last month.

Weekend trials generally devoid of water work - sort of like (sorry, Eug) Aston Villa's goal differential this season...

From the KC "J" regs

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10. Water Retrieves
a. In Open and All Aged Stakes, the water retrieve is a blind retrieve from across water. If a dog returns by land, it should not be penalised for this unless it wastes time thereby.

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MG

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does anyone know what kind of water retrieves you would see at a British field trial?

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As crackerd posted, very few. Even on ordinary shoot days there won't be many; just in the way that a lot of US sportsmen have developed their interest in duck hunting over decoys, so in UK the driven scene looms large. So the specialist retrievers in the US work in a lot of water, but in UK we have a heavy exposure to heavy numbers on land, and of course you can expect ground game. What you term upland and we call "rough shooting" are pretty much the same.

Two Fridays back I actually had six water retrieves on the bounce; all pheasants that had landed in a lake. By your standards they were pretty simple, nothing over 50 yards and only one blind. The following Wednesday I had to have the dog in question put down which was a real punch in the face. But still, as a Villa supporter you get used to disappointment.:(

MG ....it was "Eddie"one of the pair I had from Jeff, I've told him about it. As you know he had a really cruel trot with his dogs a couple of years back, but he's doing well with them now. Given up Trialling, and judging too, and seemingly happier for it.

Eug

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Originally Posted by crackerd

A number between none and one. The one - "the" water retrieve - is a requirement at the IGL championships, the UK national held last month.

Weekend trials generally devoid of water work - sort of like (sorry, Eug) Aston Villa's goal differential this season...

From the KC "J" regs




MG

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No, the above is not true. UK retriever field trials may have water retrieves or they may not. The majority probably don't as we do a lot of walked up trialling here (particularly in the North and Midlands). And a water retrieve is NOT a requirement at the IGL Retriever Championships. We have a lot less water over here!!! Where the Championships were held last year for example, there was no water. This year we were lucky to have the fast flowing River Findhorn in Inverness to contend with, to provide some interesting retrieves crossing it.

Not sure what J Regs you have got now Crackered, but there is no stipulation that FTs have a blind retrieve across water at all for retrievers, although dogs are required to gain a water certificate to gain their FT Champion status...

So, in this respect, water work is not our major focus.

Summer working tests are much more likely to have water elements, across rivers, ponds etc, but nothing like the technical retrieves you see in your sport. However, dogs also have to cross many different types of obstacles (such as multiple fences, stone walls, gates, ditches, dykes, going through hedge lines, woods, cover crops etc) and this requires just as much discipline from our dogs in holding their course and not deviating from the line. Dogs requiring a lot of handling and re-casting in the face of these obstacles would be penalised.

km, ta for clarifying - my J regs may be outdated (couple years old). But "making the" or "making their" water retrieve (singular) has been a staple of all the IGL champs I've been attuned to, at least the last decade or so.

Eug, sorry to hear about Eddie - you did a'right by them two, bless you for it. Hope the squire of Chatston Gundogs resurfaces in the FT game with his sangfroid still "Always Look(ing) on the Bright Side of Life" - a gem, he is.

MG

I think the water retrieve at the IGL sometimes is more a 'crowd pleaser' than anything else, if it happens!! Certainly didn't happen at Blankney 2009 and Nevill Holt 2011 among the recent ones. Let's face it, all our dogs can swim, so that is not really what we are 'testing'. There is more focus on game finding ability, marking, scenting, style and then working in-tune with the handler to seemingly pick the birds with ease...

When I think of British Labs only one comes to mind for me. HRCH Ellie MH owned by Gulfcoast. A very nice a dog indeed regardless of her breeding. :):)

Thanks for the replies about the water. Appreciate the info!