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British Labs / No Force????

96K views 332 replies 84 participants last post by  Aussie 
#1 ·
Below is an article I found in Gun Dog magazine. I would like everyones thoughts on British Labs and British training methods that apparently "do not use force"?

Gun Dog Article:

There’s a new movement making British Style Field Trials popular again, along with the British strain of Labrador retriever. These Labs are largely born with the behavior of delivering retrieved objects to hand, making it unnecessary to force-fetch them. They are also bred to be calm companions as well as peak performers in the field, according to Robert Milner, who breeds British Labs at Duckhill Kennel. And from what I saw of his 5-week-old puppies to 5-year-old adults, it’s absolutely true.

The big attraction to these trials and British training methods, for me, was the lack of force training. No force to pile, force to water, force anything. For dogs bred to be highly trainable and good at hunting, like my golden, this philosophy says it’s not necessary to use force. It’s very believable after watching several British-trained dogs complete 175-yard blind retrieves through walls of 5-foot tall brush and woods, guided by whistle and hand signals, then stand at heel, steady as a rock, while they watch another dog work.
 
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#28 ·
Obviously you haven't read Jennifer's thread on positive training.
 
#4 ·
Don't get me wrong, I am interested as well. I have seen some british labs at HRC events, but I wasn't overly impressed, (in the labs defense, it was more of a handler issue with me).
I do know a Trainer that has breed american and british labs, and the result is amazing! As far as the "No Force" thing, well I will never be sold on that idea.
 
#6 ·
So what are British Labs? And all our field dogs here in the US are breed to retrieve without force aren't they? This topic is redicules and I got sucked in.
 
#7 ·
Sorry,I disagree with you.....this post is NOT ridiculous, too much force is used on the dogs in U.S. and Canada.
Take a good look at the history of field trials and the origin of same.
Not a deviation from the norm either.....it IS the norm not use force, but not eliminating sensible punishment.
 
#9 ·
Yawning widely and waiting for another protracted flogging of a dead horse. How many pages this time?

Evan
 
#14 ·
Force fetching is just a tool.

Yes, American labs are bred to deliver the hand. ANY Lab, is bred to deliver to hand. Some are better at it then others but with reinforcement and working with on it its easy peasy.

I think people get confused about the REASON for force fetching.

Force fetching is the tool that is used to change retrieving from the dog's game to OUR game. It changes the dynamics of the "retrieve". It makes it a command vs "asking".

To me, its the single most important tool in training. When I am out hunting, I don't want the dog to have a CHOICE to refuse. Get the bird, go when I tell you and go where I tell you.

Upon the process of force fetch, its extended to teach and reinforce "non-natural" hunting tasks (ie handling).

People get "sold" on the whole "non-force" program because it SOUNDS kindler and gentler. Its easier to "stomach" for most average trainers until....until....well until the "non-force fetched" dog quits. If it quits, you have NO TOOLS in place to compel it to do what you want it to do (retrieve).

Also, please keep in mind, that the British do not hunt like we do. They do not sit in marshes and decoy ducks. They do not sit in pit blinds and call for geese.

If I was going to go 4x4ing I would get a truck, I would NOT buy a mini cooper.

WRL
 
#17 ·
Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?

British or American or Chinese is of no consequence.
 
#19 ·
Know what you're saying, (I think). And very much agree.

Do have to answer yes to your question however...my own dog...however, it didn't come easy.
And if you had the same set up in a HT, on land my dog back then would have handled well, but more than likely I'd have left the Test losing an entry fee.
 
#18 ·
British labs are born completly trained, I thought everyone knew that.
 
#27 ·
Now THAT is funny right there!!

Evan
 
#20 ·
I have witnessed very nice British dogs. No arguments here that they can and will perform the task.

My point is more on the no force required. All Labs need training to be usefull hunting companions. I have never met a person who trained with a current modern e collar program that returned to their old program.
 
#31 ·
I have witnessed very nice British dogs. No arguments here that they can and will perform the task. .
I hope one of 'em was mine! :)

I have never met a person who trained with a current modern e collar program that returned to their old program
I did it both ways, and I can say that there are PLENTY of adversives in "British" training, and I would not hang up my ecollar and go back, either.

Have a good day.
 
#22 ·
Do these no force british labs hunt woodcock? Not too many dogs will pick them up without forcing. Would be interesting experiment to see if a woodcock would be delivered to hand.

I liked all the british labs I have met.

Not sure why force is getting a bad wrap. Maybe too much ignorance and misinformation is playing on peoples emotions, especially from influences outside of retriever training. Or maybe some just get sick of the negative stereotype and the defense of the most popular methods. Heck, I even get sick of my neighbors overly concerned questions about my dogs staying outside in dog runs during the day. "OOOHHH Those Poor Dogs, Dont They Get Cold?" LOL
 
#25 ·
I'm really new to this, but I don't recall seeing the British Labs in Brit-land doing some of the water work that we do here? Or am I wrong?
 
#26 ·
my brother Clint went to medical school in England, and on the rare times that he had to himself he spent the time watching British field trials and retriever training methods...you are comparing apples to oranges...just like the United States and Great Britain are two nations separated by a common language :p:p
 
#29 · (Edited)
In British Field Trials the dogs are required to retrieve whatever is shot. That will typically include pheasants, ducks, woodcock, partridge, snipe, grouse, rabbits, hares, the occasional pigeon.


Additionally
The dog is required to retrieve the particular bird indicated by the judge. That will nearly always be the crippled bird first, and it does not matter whether the dog saw it or not. The dog on the way to the cripple fall area often flushes fresh birds. If he chases them he is out. When he get to the area of the fall and takes up the trail of the cripple he must follow it and ignore freshly flushed birds. Frequently the trail on a strong runner will take the dog out of sight and into heavy cover for long time periods (see link at bottom for photos of typical cover). If he fails to find and fetch that cripple, he is out. Then another dog is tried on the same bird.
Additionally the dog will be required to sit quietly through a pheasant drive where dozens of pheasants are shot as great numbers are driven over pre-stationed guns. The drive might continue for 20 minutes and several hundred birds be driven over with 40 or 50 shot. After the drive the dogs must continue to sit and honor the other working dogs until their turn comes. See photo on link below. It shows 5 dogs on line for a drive. Two of them are with one handler. This was taken at the IGL Retriever Championship in 1987 at Sandringham.
Here is a longer look at British Field Trials: http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/

On Training:

British retriever trainers and training culture is far more gentle than the American model. There are some hard trainers in the UK, but they are few in number. Much of the training is based on compulsion, but the application is much softer.

Positive training is a different model in which nearly no compulsion is used.
Here is a synopsis of Positive training for retriever gundogs: http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/positivegundogs.php
 
#30 ·
I think Eug posted this video a while back.....pretty interesting, nothing to do with force, American vs British just a very cool video with some excellent dog work!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBBiL3ixsFY
 
#33 · (Edited)
Has anyone out there seen a dog that would consistently handle a poison bird in a hunting situation that was trained without being force fetched, or without force to get the dog pasted the poison bird and on the the cripple that would be lost if it was not retrieved first?
Yupp. Mine. And lots of others. If you pick up on driven shoots, it's a basic tool of the trade. Very often you'll send your dog for a pricked bird that's still in the air and planing on for hundreds of yards and he'll have to pass a lot of dead ones on the way. On other occasions there will be a few dead birds lying in the open with a runner amongst them.

Do these no force british labs hunt woodcock? Not too many dogs will pick them up without forcing.
Again, mine do. So do the others I see around.

The British trainers have such bad teeth the dogs are having a hard time understanding them.
And the appallingly bad manners of the dogs in the US are all too clearly reflected in their handlers who themselves are easily distinguished by their wobbly fat arses and waddling gait.

Eug
 
#34 ·
Yupp. Mine. And lots of others. If you pick up on driven shoots, it's a basic tool of the trade. Very often you'll send your dog for a pricked bird that's still in the air and planing on for hundreds of yards and he'll have to pass a lot of dead ones on the way. On other occasions there will be a few dead birds lying in the open with a runner amongst them.

Eug
The poison bird scenarios I've seen in AKC events involve sending the dog on a blind retrieve, after it has seen shot bird. It has to ignore the shot bird and get the bird it didn't see fall. I think the scenario you have described involves a dog ignoring fallen birds as it is going to a shot bird that it has marked?
 
#35 · (Edited)
Renee,

Either or both. On a driven shoot the dog won't see a bird fall he'll see dozens, and still be expected to take whatever line he's given; if you fluff it up in a Trial that's you on the bus home just as Robert described. On the first drive last Monday five dogs picked 120 birds, so one falling out of the sky is hardly a novelty.

Eug
 
#41 · (Edited)
I took them as insults and replied in kind.

There are those internet heroes who hide venom behind a "joke", which is just as I saw it. The remark about bad manners still stands.

Ive expanded the discussion a little in a new thread which I hope will generate more light than heat from people with an informed opinion.

Eug
 
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