In regards to the fireman drills ,halfway marks ,second bird thrown ,etc... if this is done to often or not done at appropriate times isn't it possible to make a young dog become dependent on the 2nd throw ? Which could in turn have the pup being conditioned to the multiple bird marks and they begin to think -first bird , just means go and I'll get a second on the way.
I like this idea also. especially with a dog that seems a bit uneasy with distance...
Originally Posted by Duckquilizer
It made me think of what we are doing with pups at this stage of training.....
They maybe in the middle of FF,, so ,, maybe their morning will be somewhat unpleasant. It will definatly include the introduction of force to acheive a action.. The pup experiences pressure..
Maybe another young dog will be going through pile work,, and have force applied when we send them,, maybe force applied when we whistle.
THEN we go an throw marks...
How many of you Pro or experienced folks that have trained several dogs succesfully, consider this,, and make the MARKING part of that puppys day less stressful,, and more fun? How many concentrate on enhancing ATTITUDE and GO<GO< GO?
If you have been here long,, you have all read excellent threads by Mr. Randy Bohn (sorry spelling).
How is is possible to keep excitement and attitude positive,, but NOT get the dogs dapper down, by expecting to much obedience or applying pressure at the line ect.. Or,the converse, develope bad behaviors at the line?
I wonder howmany of us do this, worrying about Oh my god,,, I betterhave a dog that Sits,, or comes right back to me,, or doesnt drop a bird,, ect ect,, instead of focusing on ATTITUDE ?
Then you have the camp that stops throwing marks, or field work, during FF
(guilty as charged)
I believe this should only be done with dogs that OBVIOUSLY need it..
Originally Posted by Shawn White
It shows itself very clearly, IMHO.
What about salting AOF for young dogs? to build confidence. If they make the AOF,, they will most definatly find a bird?
Attitude is important - that's why some one here posted - Don't overdo the number of marks, leave something in the battery for the future.
Originally Posted by MooseGooser
You don't do every thing you are working on with a pup in the same area or at the same time - break the work sessions into segments in different areas - recognizing that at some point all the segments need to fit - when you manage that will tell you a lot - many folks I know do basic force fetch in the garage - they do basic marking, line manners after OB in a field with no features, like a school yard - it's only when those things are out of the way that they graduate to more advanced concepts - & change fields - Also there is nothing wrong with taking your dog for a walk through obstacles that you might encounter in the future -
The latest Retriever News has an excellent session on marking - for dogs that are getting ready to play - not for puppies but something that should always be in the back of your mind at any level.
Ask yourself why is the dog behind the gunner? Typically for the following reasons
Originally Posted by MooseGooser
2. Factors - terrain, wind, suction to something appealing
3. Too much cover to see the bird/bumper on the ground.
Build on success. If a dog is back siding the gunner at this stage, its most likely one of those things is the cause.
Wow! There are so many ways to help a young dog improve marking. Being able to simplify and choose a few can be an issue. From my experience, training in a group complicates things because the marking setups are not always the best for every dog. So knowing how to simplify those setups is critical.
However, I think Mike was looking for something to do in the "middle of the week" (no large group....even alone). Either way, it would be nearly impossible to effectively employ all the great ideas listed in this thread, Simplifying (doing just a few) should be the focus. If he "jumps around" trying several over a short period of time, how's he going to judge what's going on and realize any steady progress?
What has always been effective with training my pups to mark is making sure they are given exactly what they need coupled with a very gradual increase in difficulty (factors). The general rule I follow is make the trip to the AOF challenging and with the mark easy to find when they get there. "Easy to find" may mean visibility (lighter cover), scented or even salted. I want to consistently see my pup running fast with a focus then slowing down and using his nose/eyes when nearing the AOF. The pup needs to develop this as a routine. Until those are obvious, distance remains fluid.
What you need to do.....depends on reading the pup. Keep it simple with a sequentially focused rationale and build gradually.
Attitude is very important in young dogs. I like to do the heaviest OB before doing marks, let the session end on marks and keep it fun and successful. on the return to the truck do maintenance OB and end on fun note.
Kwick did make a good point for my personal circumstance.
Weekend group is really positive. There are people there to throw. There are people there that have a consistent way that all agree as to when and how to help if dog needs help on mark..
Most assuredly, when it our turn to run, I will be instructed to alter the set up of the day somehow because of puppys inexperience. Most of the time it will involve moving closer, or past a shorter gun to take that gun out of the picture. I have always run the marks of a triple a singles.. The marks are Always WAY more challenging than what I set up during the week...
During the week, I train mostly by myself. I use remote wingers. I have noticed the pup has a hard time seeing the bumper come out of the winger. She ususally sees it, at the top of the arc,, but Often, the bounce when it hits the ground... It has been a struggle to get her to be able to handel winger thrown bumpers..
This past week,, I had a fantastic opportunity to have someone join in and actually throw marks for her during my week day training..
I chose the distances that I felt the pup was comfortable with when I use wingers.. I could not believe the difference the real person throwing a mark made. She did very well.
She HAS to learn to handel WINGER thrown marks.... Its just the way it is. I hang a white shirt on the winger... The wingers release has a way to incorporate a shot as the winger is activated,,, But I dont think the dog associates the winger and white shirt, the same way she associates the real BB..
I have paid attention and asked myself if the throw from the winger is similar in nature as far a distance and hight of arc ect,, and I do believe I have the winger set to be very similar.
Yup, I've seen youngsters out close to or in the area of the fall looking to the bird boy for another throw rather than digging out the bird that was thrown. My feeling is that if you are doing fire drills or 2nd birds to much you are chewing off more than the pup can chew, SIMPLIFY!
Originally Posted by Shawn White
This does not mean you do not use fire drills and 2nd throws to help stretch out the pup or get him through some difficult cover and when he bounces out he heads towards the wrong bird boy. Fire drills and 2nd throws have a place in puppy and young dog training. Just don't overdo them.
I think we've used this word before, "Balance."