A few questions about progression through smartworks....

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Originally Posted by KwickLabs

That's an excellent description. It appears you've got a keeper, and the bird boy situation sounds wonderful.



You need to slow the delivery process down. The frenzy of too many marks (mentioned before) will eat away the desired expectations of control and responsiveness. Don't feed his anxiety. Teach him that being calm and quiet at the line is much more important than flying "out and back" twenty plus times.

It appears that his retrieving drive may be way ahead of his mental maturity which happens often early on. Pups caught in this dilemma often develop faulty, negative coping skills to deal with this. Avoid over reaching on skills and try to allow his age specific immaturity to "catch up" with his raw talent.

By the way, your description had me thinking "Wow, I think archer66 is going to have a wild ride with this pup." Hang on tight. :)

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Thanks for the comment....by slowing down the whole delivery process down are you suggesting more time between retrieves? Here's what I'm doing now: He comes back with the bumper and since he's not force trained hes sometimes holding it correctly and sometimes cigaring it. He gets to me and I'll sit him down but again since he's not forced he'll duck his head or turn it away in an attempt to keep the bumper. I generally have to PRY it out of his mouth.....I know that HOLD, DROP, and the rest of force fetch will cure this so I haven't been worrying about it. Let me make another comment about him....he's a full time house dog, his house training went very well, he thinks he's a lap dog....matter of fact right now he's staring jealously at my laptop lol. He's much more laid back than my Golden was...he's very calm and quiet in the house...only barks when he wants to go out and no one is paying attention. His FRENETIC attitude toward bumpers is the only thing he acts that way toward......if he's not in sit I really do have to watch him or he'll jump and steal a bumper from me. I've been stuffing them in a backpack so he can't see them when we are walking to and from the line.

What are your thoughts on my obedience question?

I wish my pup wanted to retrieve like that that she seems to get board with more than 3-4 marks in the same general area but lights it up with different set ups. You might want to work on the letting go of bumper before bird intro but I'm just as new to this as you so what do I know. My pup used to not let go of bumpers also and when we introduced to birds I had a pheasant in three pieces, never found one of the legs and got my hand bit at least once.:razz:

OK. You have experience training a dog. What is your gut feeling on the obedience?

In my obedience class, here, heel, and sit is an ongoing project. When I taught each command, I did one at a time but again these commands are an ongoing project and this is obedience class. In training her for outside the obedience ring, I took my time and trained her in different areas to generalize the behavior. My approach also is to introduce each distraction singly, then add one distraction at a time until I get a satisfactory response with the added distraction. I mention this because you seem to be concerned about the here command around distractions. Others may be dealing with distractions in a different way. Hopefully you will get more input.

As far as your pup goes, I wish you luck. You sound like you have a terrific pup!

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Originally Posted by gdgnyc

OK. You have experience training a dog. What is your gut feeling on the obedience?

In my obedience class, here, heel, and sit is an ongoing project. When I taught each command, I did one at a time but again these commands are an ongoing project and this is obedience class. In training her for outside the obedience ring, I took my time and trained her in different areas to generalize the behavior. My approach also is to introduce each distraction singly, then add one distraction at a time until I get a satisfactory response with the added distraction. I mention this because you seem to be concerned about the here command around distractions. Others may be dealing with distractions in a different way. Hopefully you will get more input.

As far as your pup goes, I wish you luck. You sound like you have a terrific pup!

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My concern about the distractions stems from the need to have a strong foundation....each progressive step in training builds on skills learned in the current step. What I don't know is whether or not I'm expecting too much compliance in the face of distractions for the age/maturity level of my pup. My book covers the steps but really doesn't elaborate on how to know when to move to the next step. Sam knows what HERE means and he's learning that he has to obey the HERE command even when he doesn't want too. So....what I'm trying to figure out is whether or not I'm "glossing" over the foundation that HERE builds by moving on to HEEL, SIT and then on to force breaking if he's still not distraction proof. HERE is important not only because it's the first command formalized in obedience but also for the safety of my pup....I have to be able to call him off other dogs, deer, roadways, skunks, porcupines.....etc.... I know I can't expect perfection but you get the picture. I just want to do it right....

I agree with you about needing a strong foundation. I think here is of utmost importance and let me state I had a problem with my current dog but I worked on it the following way. Here in the house. Here in the yard---short then long distances. Here in front of the house. Here where she had to run past my son in front of the house. Then here alone in the field, then past my son, then past one dog, then past one dog and my son, and so on. My approach---make it clear what is expected in each situation. I also think that when my dog was 6 months she would have had a hard time with the distractions that you mention. Bottom line IMHO is that you are expecting too much at 6 months.

My description above is often called proofing. It can't hurt to proof before you consider a behavior to be learned.

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Originally Posted by archer66

My pup is 6 and a half months now. We are following Evan Graham's Smartwork system.

Here's where he is now.

My question about this part is how many marks do you generally give a 6 month old pup in a single session. Right now he's been getting about 20 and is begging for more. He goes out hard and fast, comes back hard and fast. Doesn't want to give up the bumper and if I'm not careful he'll jump up and steal it back from me any chance he gets.....simply CRAZY about bumpers. He's not been introduced to birds yet but that's coming soon.

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Cut your number of marks in half for now. Otherwise, generally a good start. Can you post some video of some of your work?

Evan

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Originally Posted by Evan

Cut your number of marks in half for now. Otherwise, generally a good start. Can you post some video of some of your work?

Evan

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I'll have to see if I can come up with a video camera...otherwise it would just be cell phone video and my cell phone camera is awful. I assume you mean video of field work or did you mean video of obedience work? I'm going to cut his marks way back....he's so into retrieving I feel like my time is better spent on obedience right now anyway. I was really most interested in guidance on how to know if I've covered HERE and CC well enough to move on with HEEL, SIT, HEEL....and after that on to force fetch.

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By slowing down the whole delivery process down are you suggesting more time between retrieves?

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Well that would happen, but the time would be increased in terms of the amount of time it takes you to slow down taking the bumper from your pup. I assume he comes to heel and sits. Then is when you need to create a different expectation. Don't try to take the bumper right away. Let him settle into the sit, calm down and focus more on you. The idea is to give him more time to realize that until this happens.....there won't be another retrieve. It's not just about the retrieve.

Be quiet and calm as you remind him to sit....and wait. By refocusing him on you, the bumper will be easier to take and eventually this will be a more pleasant expectation/routine.

Basically, he thinks it the bumper is his and you are not allowing him enough time to adjust. The haste keeps him in the adrenalin rush of "ready, set go". A manic pup seems to be able to go forever and it is exciting. However, they can be a "pain in the behind" when this is ingrained.

Without the FF routine of "sit", "hold" and "drop/give" in place....time is the only way to get a more reliable and willing "give".

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Originally Posted by archer66

I'll have to see if I can come up with a video camera...otherwise it would just be cell phone video and my cell phone camera is awful. I assume you mean video of field work or did you mean video of obedience work?

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Marks as well as drills in separate sessions. Try to comment a bit about what's going on and why.

Evan

Kwicklabs gives very good advice, Grasshopper