Skinner vs Pavlov

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Originally Posted by DarrinGreene

@ Steve B. Hi! All I am referring to there in terms of "new methods" is that I'm now of the mindset to avoid collar pressure in all but the most clear cut situations. Go/stop/come, for instance. As you mentioned, sometimes pressure can be interpreted incorrectly, thus, I would rather avoid it unless I'm pretty sure the dog is going to understand it 100%.

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Very good ..Welcome aboard....Your " new method " is what I have been doing since the 70's...Steve S ...

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Originally Posted by steve schreiner

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Very good ..Welcome aboard....Your " new method " is what I have been doing since the 70's...Steve S ...

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What's new for me is certainly old hat for someone Steve. After all, I didn't make it up!

There's more to what I am doing right now. If you care to chat on it, I'm happy to PM. I just don't need a giant public debate.

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Originally Posted by DarrinGreene

I just don't need a giant public debate.

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Very wise.

But will not learn from the info passed back and forth ...That is what an open forum is for ...open debate and discussion...All we need to do is keep it civil and respect others views even if they are different from ours...After all there is more than one way to train a dog.....Steve S

Pavlov is always on your shoulder. Classical conditioning is always in play. Classical conditioning is why your dog gets excited when you get out the guns and bumpers and e-collars.

In Bob Bailey's Fundamentals of Animal Training DVD he explains gives an example of how to tell if a behavior is operantly conditioned or classically conditioned.

"I want to go to the movies. There is no place you can hit me to make me want to go to the movies."

(Well he phrases it better than that I don't have the disc on hand to check)

Classical conditioning is always in play. But I'd say 90% of retriever training is operant conditioning, particularly because in so many cases we're fighting against the dog's natural inclination (prime example: cheating water/cover).

Most dog training is primarily operant. Only with aggression/fear/behavior problems of that ilk do you work primarily with classical conditioning, because you're working to change the dog's internal state.

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Originally Posted by RaeganW

....I'd say 90% of retriever training is operant conditioning, particularly because in so many cases we're fighting against the dog's natural inclination (prime example: cheating water/cover).

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I agree. But, the foundation of the training for a handling Retriever, relies on Classically conditioned responses.

We can't get to the 90%, until we have established those responses.

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Originally Posted by copterdoc

Unless the aversive stim means something specific to the dog, it will "look for" something to associate it with.

That could be one of a thousand different things, that was happening at the time.

However, since we have conditioned the stim to MEAN sit, it doesn't leave the dog thinking "what the hell was that?"
It doesn't "look" for a reason.


Where I/P comes in, is that it is impossible to reinforce with an aversive, without also punishing SOMETHING.

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When does the stim start to mean sit? (And even then you're still in operant conditioning not classical, because if pressure means sit, that's a cue to the dog to preform a behavior) In most of basics, don't pressure mean go? I am thinking of collar conditioned force fetch and force to pile.

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Originally Posted by RaeganW

When does the stim start to mean sit?

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During collar conditioning.

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Originally Posted by RaeganW

(And even then you're still in operant conditioning not classical, because if pressure means sit, that's a cue to the dog to preform a behavior)

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The cue, is still the command word. The dog needs to obey the command, not the collar. A dog that is collar wise, is obeying the collar, not the command.

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Originally Posted by RaeganW

......In most of basics, don't pressure mean go? I am thinking of collar conditioned force fetch and force to pile.....

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It needs to mean go, it needs to mean stop, and it needs to mean come.

At that point, the dog has the required Classical conditioning that it needs, in order for the collar to be applied to advanced handling.

The stim never means sit... unless it comes directly after a sit command...

It never means anything really. The commands we give, be they verbal or via body language are meaningful. The stim is simply there to be either escaped or avoided with compliance.

It is a re-enforcer and a punisher, but never, does it ever come to be a cue to an particular action.

At least not the way we train.

It most certainly can be used that way. If I only ever wanted one command I could turn the stim on, lure the dog into a sit position and turn it off... If I did this enough times without ever saying anything there would coma a time when I hit the button and the dog did the only thing he knew, in this case sit. We don't do it that way (hopefully). I suppose you could probably equate it to a number of commands just like we do treats, and occasionally get a dog that cycles through all known behaviors trying to turn the collar off. I think this is neat when it's to earn a treat, but I would never do it with a collar.

Because we use the collar to punish and or re-enforce a whole variety of behaviors, it never really signals anything, except that the dog needs to expediently do what he was commanded.

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Originally Posted by DarrinGreene

......The stim is simply there to be either escaped or avoided with compliance........

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That's how we use the collar to shape future behavior.

Collar conditioning, is not about shaping behavior.
It's about conditioning responses, to the specific aversive used.

The dog is already performing the behaviors, in response to the commands, prior to starting collar conditioning.
But, it won't respond correctly to the pressure applied by the collar, until it is classically conditioned to.