Skinner vs Pavlov

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Originally Posted by copterdoc

How is that different, than classically conditioning a secondary reinforcer, like the clicker?

Doesn't the dog need to make an association, on the same "level"?

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I have to think about that one. The application of pressure precedes the behavior and the marker comes after. They don't seem to be the same thing to me.

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Originally Posted by DarrinGreene

....They don't seem to be the same thing to me.

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I agree. They aren't the same thing.

But, during Collar Conditioning, something changes with how the dog understands it.
It's not just a matter of trying to escape or avoid it. They learn that they know HOW to escape or avoid it.

Difference is !
Ivan Pavlov never had a collar.

After 21 pages this thread is starting to http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FAVKG0I6XXA

Actually Bill when we start to talk about the similarity or difference between a marker and negative re-enforcement, it's a completely different discussion.

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Originally Posted by copterdoc

I agree. They aren't the same thing.

But, during Collar Conditioning, something changes with how the dog understands it.
It's not just a matter of trying to escape or avoid it. They learn that they know HOW to escape or avoid it.

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I don't know if I agree with a dog's ability to reason like that either but doesn't really matter.

You're right, there's definitely an association. Turning of the pressure would be the same as the food/toy on the other side of the equation.

I suppose the marker is just a step in the chain that happens to be missing when we use -r.

Along the same lines, you should be able to condition an association between a collar correction and a particular whistle tone or trill through consistent application. Once the association is made you should be able to maintain it with intermittent application of the collar and associated whistle tone. Ultimately, you should be able to get the desired response from just the conditioned whistle tone in situations where the dog does not have the collar on. I am sure people do this already but I do not consciously make it part of my training program. I do use whistle modulation to communicate with the dog.

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Originally Posted by Sabireley

Along the same lines, you should be able to condition an association between a collar correction and a particular whistle tone or trill through consistent application. Once the association is made you should be able to maintain it with intermittent application of the collar and associated whistle tone. Ultimately, you should be able to get the desired response from just the conditioned whistle tone in situations where the dog does not have the collar on. I am sure people do this already but I do not consciously make it part of my training program. I do use whistle modulation to communicate with the dog.

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It would be nice to have a whistle tone/tune for telling the dog to get in the water at distance. Wonder if the judges would balk at that...

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Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion

It would be nice to have a whistle tone/tune for telling the dog to get in the water at distance. Wonder if the judges would balk at that...

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No one would balk but they would consider it a cast, so if it were on a mark, you would get marked down, possibly dropped in some stakes.

[QUOTEThat's true.

When a dog knows sit-to-flush, and a bird gets up, it can be held to a high enough standard that sit is enforceable with the collar, without the command being given.][/QUOTE]

Dog sampling a pile of birds on a blind. Push button ---dog returns
Dog drops bird on his way back from retrieve,,dog is screwing around---push button dog picks up bird and straightens his act out.
Dog returns after retrieve--- handler starts BSing-- dog veers off because of handlers lack of focus-handler wakes up-- handle rpushes button---dog returns to heel
Dog rolls bird in mouth--handler pushes button---dog stops rolling

It works for any well conditioned response in context