Read through most of the pages, and decided you all have some anal retention issues. Did you forget about Freud? Perhaps there are some Id, ego, and super ego's in place here. :razz:
Nice thread, and good discussion---no psychoanalysis intended.
However, the objective of processes like FF and Collar Conditioning, is not to change the dog's behavior. It's to change the dog's understanding of pressure.
It's about giving the aversive stimulus meaning. To allow the pressure itself, to have specific meaning to the dog.
We use Operant Conditioning to explain to the dog what the stimulus means.
As it learns what it means, the dog forms an association between the pressure, and the action. That association becomes conditioned (classically) so that the dog actually responds to the pressure, by performing the behavior.
We aren't after the behavior. We want the conditioned association with the pressure.
We only use Operant Conditioning, to get the classically conditioned response to the pressure. Once we have that, the same rules of escape and avoidance do not need to apply to aversives, in every instance.
Prior to this change, pressure can ONLY punish.
If pressure can only punish, we can't reinforce with pressure.
If the pressure means sit, the pressure doesn't punish sit.
The pressure punishes something else. Like where the dog was, or what it was doing immediately before being "told" to sit with applied pressure.
When you force to a pile, you are "saying" fetch with the e-collar. The dog might not understand it at first. But you can adjust your timing, so that you can apply the pressure as P+ and R- until the dog establishes the association and the response is conditioned.