Women in combat?

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Originally Posted by road kill

Is there even a remote chance that this one woman was WRONG????

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maybe not so wrong but just expertise in the wrong area...I watched the news interview both Rep Duckworth and another fighter pilot....both were articulate representatives, but they are specialists and are the 1%...they are the " Top Gun" of the women in the military, not even questioning their skills or quals...

But look at the foot soldier,sweeping the streets of some unnamed town looking for unfriendlies...this is not some video game....let them serve in combat, lets just show some sense as to where we put them

I have no personal experience, so this may just be a blah blah blah moment, but...

Combat has changed, so say all; and there are now "combat positions" for which many young healthy women are highly qualified, and perhaps would be sought after. On the flip side, there are, so say all, many non-combat positions which women have been serving in well that, nonetheless, put soldiers in harm's way and require combat training and response.

so--really--what does this directive do but make women available to earn the pay grades and raises and promotions their male counterparts have available to them?

Analogy: I don't think anyone's talking about throwing gymnasts in with the Greco-Roman heavyweights... But if there are a few women that can run a marathon as well as or better than a typical strong male marathoner, and have a longer career out of it that then allows those few women to train and manage up and coming marathoners and marathon events with the experience of having run with the best of both sexes... What's the big deal? Isn't having more good people with real experience a good thing?

Provided the women are capable of the jobs--so what?

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Originally Posted by luvalab

Provided the women are capable of the jobs--so what?

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I agree...if they can meet the physical and mental demands go for it! However, if women are now allowed in combat it is JMO shouldn't they also be included if we have another draft? Curious how would you feel if your High School Daughter or Grand Daughter pulled that magic number and had to go off to war?

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Originally Posted by Susie Royer

Curious how would you feel if your High School Daughter or Grand Daughter pulled that magic number and had to go off to war?

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The same as if it were my son.

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Originally Posted by Susie Royer

I agree...if they can meet the physical and mental demands go for it! However, if women are now allowed in combat it is JMO shouldn't they also be included if we have another draft? Curious how would you feel if your High School Daughter or Grand Daughter pulled that magic number and had to go off to war?

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Well, I don't have kids, so I can't say how how I think I would feel.

I do have feelings, though; kids going to war is a terrible, terrible thing, whether as part of a volunteer force or whether conscripted. I can't believe that as a matter of sentiment that a dead boy or a dead girl is more or less heartbreaking. Boy or girl, I can't imagine the grief.

I would hope that, should there be a situation that requires large numbers of troops, that the people in charge of these things will know whether it is expedient or inexpedient to extend the draft to women.

As a high school teacher, I can say with confidence that generationZ, or whatever we're on, has very few petite flowers! These young women are athletic, bold, patriotic, willing and more often than us old folks think able to do what the guys do physically. Not always for sure!--not even often--but, not rarely, either.

They are also extremely practical--I highly doubt they would condone a system that pretended they were physically capable of doing something they were not. But for those who are physically gifted, they are proud of their strength and ready to use it.

I would just like to mention that getting fired on and seeing your friends get hit is not like TV or the lies you hear from the Whitehouse.
It is the worst thing you can imagine.

I am a bit surprised no other vets are weighing in on this.
It seems the expertise is coming from those who have not endured the experience.

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Originally Posted by road kill

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I am a bit surprised no other vets are weighing in on this.
It seems the expertise is coming from those who have not endured the experience.

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I've listened to a good number of vets on the radio, both pro and con--honestly, the pro seem cautiously optimistic, the con seem vehemently opposed, the numbers seem split 50/50. I would like to here RTF'ers as well.

(As for me, I think everyone's well aware that my primary qualification is having a keyboard, and no one has broken my fingers yet. Just so long as everyone's upfront about where their opinions are coming from, I don't see the harm, except taking up some sort of mythical etherspace. ;-) )

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Originally Posted by luvalab

I've listened to a good number of vets on the radio, both pro and con--honestly, the pro seem cautiously optimistic, the con seem vehemently opposed, the numbers seem split 50/50. I would like to here RTF'ers as well.

(As for me, I think everyone's well aware that my primary qualification is having a keyboard, and no one has broken my fingers yet. Just so long as everyone's upfront about where their opinions are coming from, I don't see the harm, except taking up some sort of mythical etherspace. ;-) )

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My posts are just my opinions.
I could be wrong.

But having lived the experience, I stand before my Mom, Sister, Wife and Daughter.
To protect them from such horror.
That's the way my Dad raised me.

The United States Military is not a social test tube..............that's what our secular progressive universities are for!!!

No disrespect intended, quite the contrary..

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Originally Posted by road kill

My posts are just my opinions.
I could be wrong.

But having lived the experience, I stand before my Mom, Sister, Wife and Daughter.
To protect them from such horror.
That's the way my Dad raised me.
You are a good man, Stan, no doubt.

The United States Military is not a social test tube..............that's what our secular progressive universities are for!!!
Ah--but it is!!! Always has been. At least, that's what my secular progressive education taught me. :) Not that it's the purpose--it just can't help it, it seems.

No disrespect intended, quite the contrary..
None perceived.

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I so totally disagree with most of what you have to say, but it's all good. The internet is a wonderful non-place.

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I am a bit surprised no other vets are weighing in on this.
It seems the expertise is coming from those who have not endured the experience.

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It's b/c we know the truth of the matter will play out in the end.

Here I'll share some Vet Talk from another forum;

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Originally Posted by M-66supersingle

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/a...-created-equal
She expresses my thoughts almost exactly. It's written by a female Marine Captain. There was another article written my a female Marine Lieutenant that went more in depth about specific biological differences. This idea that "It's about the person not the gender or persuasion." is asinine, women's bodies and physiology are not the same as a male's. Lets not forget about the additional logistics concerning women's products and the age old problem of having young men and women working and living in such close quarters especially once you factor in the conditions they will be serving in. There is a reason why males and females do not compete against each other on the olympics or collegiate sports. I can even see that with the female officer candidates that I train with. Heck take some Kinesiology classes and learn about the physical differences. Allowing and pushing for women in combat does absolutely nothing for the combat effectiveness of our service. It's just more political bullsh**.

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Hitman is a 2x C.A.R. Infantry Marine Vet with tours in Afghan and Fallujah

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Originally Posted by Hitman

Will it really matter?

I mean the Corps took on volunteers to go through the Infantry Officer Course just a few months ago! They all dropped/failed out. I mean these were 1st Class 300 PFT'ers that volunteered for the program and they couldn't make it.

The only way I see young women making it through Marine Corps SOI is if they drop the standard or you have just one tough ass chick. In that case would it be worth all the hoo-ha to have just that 1 in 500 bad ass chick in the platoon?

I don't know, maybe so. :dunno:

Something just doesn't seem right about allowing those very very select few young women be surrounded by hard charging, testosterone fueled, fire breathing young men. ... :confused: ...

The Army does Co-ed Basic Training in some states, I hear(From Current and Retired) that they are having the constant issues you'd expect. Recruits getting pregnant, dudes fighting over chicks, overly protective Ego's causing problems and on and on. It's just a mess.

In the simplest of forms, there were many times that many men failed to complete training due to physical limitations and they weren't just weak men either. Like Didley, I just don't see the average 18 yr old 115 lbs young woman being able to keep up physically with today's requirements. it seems like they are letting EGO's get in the way of efficiency and it might lead to a lot of women setting themselves up for failure.

I don't know what to think about it but for some reason I'm not 100% against it? :dunno:

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Originally Posted by Hitman

The Sgt. Maj of the Marine Corps has spoken! He's an 03' too, Errah!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAy7eDS8JY0

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Doc Ace is a Combat Medic

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Originally Posted by doc ace

I'm sure there will be an "oooh, you're wrong Doc," response but this is what I've witnessed firsthand as a combat medic in the infantry. And no, not a stay in the truck medic, rather, Doc, 4th man in the stack, 4th man in the room kind of medic.

Women in the infantry will prove to be faulty due to the compromisation of the mission if sh hits the fan. It is an instinctual response in men to protect the women when immediate danger is at hand. A mission will go south faster than a snowball headed for hell simply because there absolutely will be intersquad relations of the sexual kind, so and so is banging so and so in 3rd platoon and now Johnny wants to kill himself. Also, if she gets nailed by sniper fire and used as bait, much like they have done to RTOs and medics, you actually think that fire superiority will be some hard leg's first thought? Or rather would it become "oh man my ol lady is lying there bleeding out on the X," and wham bam we have yet another casualty and are risking even more Americans getting out mr and mrs smith off of the most dangerous place on the battlefield.

What about when we're humping it back 5 or 10 clicks after losing 4 guys and we're not only carrying a 70+ load but the extra weight of our battle bud's equipment/240/249 and full combat load on our backs? Do you honestly think she is humping 150% of her weight back the entire way through more hostile fire and terrain?

I don't see it as being a good thing.

What about a woman's monthly menstrual cycle and the clandestine living conditions of the infantryman? We went 10-20 days without proper running water and baby wipe baths. Yeast infections would be heavily prevalent. What most don't realize that lived on a FOB their entire tour and had 4 square meals/running water/privacy is that in the US Infantry there isn't that luxury. And definitely no room for censoring/hiding genitals/etc and worrying about it offending anyone else.

You'll never present an argument plausible enough for me to believe they should be there. I loved my fellow female solders and their sacrifices, but it'd do more harm than good and it terrifies me that young men may not come home because they were chasing a doe during the rut.

Doc

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Originally Posted by doc ace

How many Joe's did you know getting married to the barracks whore that spent all of his money on Jody? It's inevitable. No matter what we advise or warn against, Joe Snuffy will sniff up the wrong skirts time in and time out. It's hard enough taking an 18 year old man and sticking him in an unforgiving and austere environment. Much less even more impossible giving him hope with only the men around him for moral support. Does anyone think an 18 year old who's never known a woman's touch and thrown into that kind of environment will honestly think with a clear head when it comes down to go time the day after the night that little miss muffett got a little lonely and jumped into his fart sack to cuddle and feel safe? A ball of raging hormones will try anything to get into those pants. Haven't we all tried the unthinkable to impress a woman although it was ill advised?!

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Originally Posted by Kraut

I don't think the American public is as ready for this as many of them believe. As horrific as it is when a male servicemember is captured, tortured, burned/beheaded, etc., when it happens to a female and gets posted online, or captured female soldiers are stripped and gangraped in front of cameras, the public will not be able to stomach it. As referenced in the article from the female Marine officer, it seems that this agenda is being driven by outside forces who actually have no stake in this. With no huge numbers of women in the military clamoring for this, it's a solution to a non-existent problem.

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Originally Posted by Bayoupiper

There will always be exceptions but as has already been pointed out, most women cannot "pass muster" when it comes to fitness for combat.

I see this in martial arts all the time.

There are plenty of excellent women martial artists that can execute perfect kicks and punches and spar as well as any of the men.

But if it comes down to an actual physical confrontation between two equally skilled martial artists, one male and one female, the female is going to get her ass kicked!



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Originally Posted by doc ace

Thanks Charlie,

I'm absolutely not a sexist man or chauvinist in any way whatsoever either, it's just human nature to err when hormones and the pursuit of a female can lead a man blindly. I'd hate for promotions and politics in units to get skewed due to APFT standards being unequal or misconduct leading to the eneffectiveness of cohesion as was stated previously.

War is a terrible thing. It isn't glamorous. There aren't guys riding off into the sunset. It is filthy, has a certain stench, body fluids and sweat. There's a slim chance in the infantry of any sort of acceptable hygiene for men especially on the assault/defense, and just think of, once again, a woman trying to maintain her level of acceptable hygene to not pave way for infections etc.

Another sad thing is when the female soldier got cold feet prior to deployment and went out and got pregnant which happened time and time again. What do you do when your SAW gunner or grenadier says oops guys I know I've been training with you the past year but I'm knocked up by the LT, no deployment for me? Too many holes there. We never listened to any sort of excuse. You were there, regardless of your situation.

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