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Yes, but when he was saying SHut up you F'er...... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by copterdoc
Plus, I wasn't suggesting it was.... notice the space between the first line, and the next paragraph. Two topics.
And, we were talking about what we've seen, not what we've heard. At least I thought that was what we were talking about...whether to out a pro or not.
I can't tell from your post if this is a hypothetical or you are weighing in your mind whether to do this? Assuming this is hypothetical I can see two parts of the question; 1) is just people getting bad service from an incompetent or lazy pro, and 2) is perceived dog abuse. Unless the abuse was so over the top and was observed first hand over many sessions, I might anser truthfully what I saw if asked directly and or offer my opinion if my friend was considering this pro, but otherwise keep my mouth shut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Parker
I have witnessed training sessions where through no fault of the trainer, the wheels fell off the wagon and the session rapidly went downhill, to the point where there was way more pressure involved than this trainer ever uses, but there was no other way out that wouldn't have more lasting ill effects. If somebody happened by right at that time they would likely think the worst about this trainer, when in reality he is on the softer side of the spectrum, can read dogs like a wizzard and is more than fair in giving dogs the benefit of the doubt. In this case it was a very hard headed dog that the trainer knew could handle pressure most dogs couldn't and like I said the dog put them both in a postion of no return.
Unless I saw something beyond the pale, in which case reporting him on RTF would be redundant because I would have already dealt with it more directly, I agree with those who said it is the owners responsibility to do due dilligence, watch said pro work, ask for references and inform myself. One last thing, we all have different personalities, as do our dogs and pros. A certain well respected trainer might be perfect for you and your dog, but could be a disaster for me and my dog, one size doesn't fit all. Do your homework.
John
From your responses on here you seem to not really care what happens to someone else dog and you think this is a joke. I guess I have more companion for the feeling and well being of not just my dogs but other peoples dogs as well I don't like to see any living creature abused and when I say abused I don't mean a little harsh training methods I'm talking about beating a dog senseless for little or no reason because you think your teaching the dog to respect you when all your doing is making it fear you.Quote:
Originally Posted by copterdoc
So this isn't a hypothetical. I guess you have to do what your conscience tell you. Did you confront the trainer first? I appreciate the fact that you post under your own name, I have a hard time with people who post anomynously. I just hope you are correctly interpreting what you saw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Parker
John
I'm pretty sure that we all have our own definitions of abuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Parker
And I highly doubt that any of us like the idea of dogs being abused.
I once saw a noisy dog being run on a blind, while wearing an activated bark collar.
That was abuse.
Not because the dog was wearing a bark collar. Not because the dog was noisy.
It was abusive, because bark collars work on vibration.
And when a dog is running a blind, there is vibration that results in correction, through no fault of the dog.
It's confusing to the dog.
Pressure applied to confusion is abusive.
Applied pressure is not abuse, just because it's applied pressure.
I own a General Contracting Company that specializes in Insurance Restoration and Custom Homes. People that want to write a review on my company can just go to Angie's List and write whatever they want. So far I've had one homeowner that embellished and lied in her review, but overall they seem to be pretty honest. Pro Trainers are no different than Contractors really. They provide a service for people that can't or don't have the time to do themselves. If you think you need to give them a review, than go to Angie's list or start your own!
That would be my first action, and have you seen this happen more than once? As John posted earlier it could have been a one time deal where there were unseen circumstances. If action needs to be taken then do it but just be sure you know the whole story.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson
Do I report in my opinion of poor or bad trainers online or otherwise. Absolutely not, not really my business, the retriever world is small, a couple of years and everyone knows what is what, one can only blow smoke for so long, before everyone notices a lack of substance. Now if someone privately asks me for a particular opinion or recommendation to a particular trainer, I'm very honest in my opinion and only give first hand knowledge, there are some that I warn against, but I need to be directly asked about them first. I do keep tabs on trainers, who take very good care of their dogs, and really seem to try, and will recommend them as being one I would feel safe leaving my dog with. There are very many good hearted pros, that are simply lacking experience and just learning themselves, still I'd much rather have my dog with one of them than one who may know how to train but only runs quaking dogs with lowered ears and broken tails.
Good post John,,, It's a very slippery slope when we start talking about training methods.Quote:
I have witnessed training sessions where through no fault of the trainer, the wheels fell off the wagon and the session rapidly went downhill, to the point where there was way more pressure involved than this trainer ever uses, but there was no other way out that wouldn't have more lasting ill effects. If somebody happened by right at that time they would likely think the worst about this trainer, when in reality he is on the softer side of the spectrum, can read dogs like a wizzard and is more than fair in giving dogs the benefit of the doubt. In this case it was a very hard headed dog that the trainer knew could handle pressure most dogs couldn't and like I said the dog put them both in a postion of no return.
Susan's example is black and white...Anything short of that can be tricky.
I would not out a pro publicly,,,,but if asked would tell exactly how I felt ..
I have on more than one occasion, dropped my dog off with with a pro and not talked with that pro for a month or two.
You need to know who you're dealing with.
P.S. 4 pages about pros and nobody has crossed the line and got it "locked up" There is hope:)
As Corey validated you are a normal person I will respond -Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Parker
You need to tell the owner that they need to go see their dog during training, absolutely nothing more. It becomes the owner's responsibility at that point.
Over the years I have trained with many pro's & have been welcome during those sessions. A good way of not being welcome is to develop the reputation of being someone who does not practice "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas". You are there to learn about training dogs, not write a gossip column. Only once have I been denied access & that had to do with one of that pro's clients, some of us know where that client resides today. I thought it a poor choice on the pro's part, but it is their prerogative, I still never bad mouthed that pro.
There are folks in this sport that treat their dogs like family with the necessary oversight to make them happy dogs - there are others who treat their dogs like livestock. It's been my experience that those who do the former have a happier experience in this sport.
But not to knock these people, but why are they getting a dog when they cannot enjoy the full experience of the raising & training?