shopping the pile

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Originally Posted by rbr

Are you comparing shopping a pile in a force drill to a switch? Apples and oranges at best.

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Care to elaborate Bert? Several birds lying on the ground after a drive, a few feet or metres apart, dog picks one and then spots another and swaps game, how is this any different to if it is dummies in a pile? The principle is the same. The dog has picked but not returned promptly. It has gone on to do something else and not return straight to handler after filling its mouth.

Again, it harks back to an underlying problem of recall, and lack of 'importance' of the handler. There is a weakness there.

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Originally Posted by tide pond

It was my original post. i spent the last two mornings sending her at close(20') range to three groups of three bumpers. I was close enough to yell a loud no! when she dropped her initial selection, called her back to heel and sent her again with loud praises if she brought back her first touch. Did pretty good yesterday and not a miss today! I'll back off tomorrow to greater distance but so far i'm encouraged.

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Just a word of caution, a loud "No" can cause some confusion

Bert

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Originally Posted by kennel maiden

Care to elaborate Bert? Several birds lying on the ground after a drive, a few feet or metres apart, dog picks one and then spots another and swaps game, how is this any different to if it is dummies in a pile? The principle is the same. The dog has picked but not returned promptly. It has gone on to do something else and not return straight to handler after filling its mouth.

Again, it harks back to an underlying problem of recall, and lack of 'importance' of the handler. There is a weakness there.

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When in a test is the dog coming across several birds a couple yards apart?

Bert

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Originally Posted by rbr

When in a test is the dog coming across several birds a couple yards apart?

Bert

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It sure happens while hunting, doesn't it? :D

Evan

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Originally Posted by kennel maiden

Care to elaborate Bert? Several birds lying on the ground after a drive, a few feet or metres apart, dog picks one and then spots another and swaps game, how is this any different to if it is dummies in a pile? The principle is the same. The dog has picked but not returned promptly. It has gone on to do something else and not return straight to handler after filling its mouth.

Again, it harks back to an underlying problem of recall, and lack of 'importance' of the handler. There is a weakness there.

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Like Mike said earlier,we have a conflict of meaninings to the word shop.My interpretation is picking a bumber up at the pile and with it in his mouth continue to nose or walk around the pile.That does not bother me much.Now if they pick one up,drop,pick another,drop.That is what I call shopping.All that is addressed on the table way before I do pile work.
I have not ever had an issue with the "noser"on any our driven shoots dropping and picking another up.If so here "nick" here has worked for me.
We do several hundred birds here in the fall and winter on driven type shoots so our dogs (and clients) get lots of exposure.

Hope to have some pics up of an all chessy shoot we are having in march.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rbr

When in a test is the dog coming across several birds a couple yards apart?

Bert

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Yes, definitely in a field trial where there will be several birds lying on the ground together after a drive, sometimes almost on top of each other. In a working test there may be a few dummies put in one area for a 'picking up' exercise, yes, but these will not be right on top of each other.

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Originally Posted by jd6400

Like Mike said earlier,we have a conflict of meaninings to the word shop.My interpretation is picking a bumber up at the pile and with it in his mouth continue to nose or walk around the pile.That does not bother me much.Now if they pick one up,drop,pick another,drop.That is what I call shopping.All that is addressed on the table way before I do pile work.
I have not ever had an issue with the "noser"on any our driven shoots dropping and picking another up.If so here "nick" here has worked for me.
We do several hundred birds here in the fall and winter on driven type shoots so our dogs (and clients) get lots of exposure.

Hope to have some pics up of an all chessy shoot we are having in march.

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Okay, both of the variations you have described would be eliminating faults here. If the dog picks and then noses around he is 'hunting on' and would be put out in competition. Likewise, switching/swapping/shopping. Either way, it boils down to the same thing again, I'm afraid - lack of importance of getting quickly back to the handler once the dog has picked.

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Originally Posted by tide pond

It was my original post. i spent the last two mornings sending her at close(20') range to three groups of three bumpers. I was close enough to yell a loud no! when she dropped her initial selection, called her back to heel and sent her again with loud praises if she brought back her first touch. Did pretty good yesterday and not a miss today! I'll back off tomorrow to greater distance but so far i'm encouraged.

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You might want to try a bird in the face drill. Throw a bumper, send dog, toss bumper at dog, don't hit her with bumper,
If she drops bumper you sent her for, take bumper she switched on, replace with bumper she dropped. Heel her back to line and repeat, toss bumper, send dog, dog picks up thrown bumper, 3/4's way back throw bumper again maybe off about 10 or 15 feet towards the dog. Same thing if try to go for the tossed bumper, command no here fetch , good dog if she delivers the original tossed bumper. Switch proofs the dog might help some on your pile work. Most dogs catch on to this drill after a few times. You could run her on a rope, if she is good with rope, you don't step on it as you send and doesn't get caught on something. Most of this stuff ,FF, pile work, etc, isn't complicated as many make it. Keep it simple and use conventional wisdom and when digging hole, quit digging and seek advice, you are seeking advice! Great start.
Of course much depends on what FF program you are following, but, if it is FF with e collar work down the road most are about the same. A bright dog helps.

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Originally Posted by kennel maiden

Okay, both of the variations you have described would be eliminating faults here. If the dog picks and then noses around he is 'hunting on' and would be put out in competition. Likewise, switching/swapping/shopping. Either way, it boils down to the same thing again, I'm afraid - lack of importance of getting quickly back to the handler once the dog has picked.

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And like I said here nick here has worked for me!

You 'nick' away Jd!!! There's no nicking going on here!....