I do believe that fred's methods are much harder on the dog than Pat Nolan
The trainer I worked with did this: on the day we started the program, she brought our Dogtra collar. Put it on the dog, waited til he was ignoring us and fooling around, then began tapping the collar (set on it's lowest setting.) No reaction of course, very low stimulation. We kept turning up the setting and tapping until the dog cocked his head, obviously feeling *something* but he wasn't sure what it was. That was our initial setting for that dog (different dogs react at different levels.) From then on, he was to wear the collar all day, every day. We were to carry the transmitter all day, every day. Every command was to be followed immediately by tap-tap-tapping with the transmitter until he complied. She specifically told us to do this from the very first time we gave a command, even a new one. So the dog would be told to sit, then be tapped with the collar until he did, even though he had no idea what the command meant. I found that a little odd. Then after 3 months of this, dog doing very well BTW, she told me we would never stop using the collar. I could not envision having my dog wear his e-collar every waking moment of every day, and me having to carry a transmitter all the time: just not realistic. About that time we started getting involved in training for hunt tests, and watched SmartWorks. The dog was quite obedient by then and didn't need the collar for every day obedience, so we just transitioned into the more traditional collar usage that most here use. Just my own experience, but I wonder whether this was a standard SMS approach or just that of our trainer, who shortly thereafter left the SMS program and went out on her own.
I have met the guy. My impression was that he loved training dogs and found a way to make a living out of it. Incredible idea! Making a franchise out of it. In addition to fully checking out the particular trainer with whom you'll be working, you need to think about your goals. Do you want the put a MH on your dog or run FT??? Then you're going to exceed the scope of a SMS trainer. But since sound basic obedience is the foundation for anything you might want to do with your dog, and if someone is following Fred's methods, they'll help you both get off to a good start.
There it is. Fred tried to back up his method by posting videos here and I must say it was very umderwelming. That said I do think his system can work for non-retrievers. He can probably turn out a very obedient dog that will suite the average pet owner. A hunting/testing/trial dog not so much.
I'll have to disagree with that CoryQuote:
There it is. Fred tried to back up his method by posting videos here and I must say it was very umderwelming. That said I do think his system can work for non-retrievers. He can probably turn out a very obedient dog that will suite the average pet owner. A hunting/testing/trial dog not so much
There is a huge misconception about the process. Saying you can't get a dog to a high trial or HT standard is not true. I don't know exactly what Pat or Fred do but I do know I do something similar so I would file it in the same category pretty much. A high standard of obedience weather you use only food,e collar or pinch collar is still a high level of obedience as long as you use the same standard for each of those. This is only another way of introducing obedience at a young age and start a proofing process with the e collar at a young age and having the subject still maintaining a great attitude. You can carry it over to many things in the field also at an early age.
This was a tough test athough its hard to see,,,took lots of bottom and lining to do properly. My Fred type method used on this dog
But like all training ,,as the dog is faced with greater temptations or things that excite him ,,the levels go up. No different than any other kind of training. The only thing I see different is a dog who carries a better attitude through the processand still comply.
Some dogs still need the ole come meeting with Jesus session,,but most go smoothly.
I have a couple dogs here who were brought up with this method and they receive an MH and did well at an early age in the Q,,,,but here is the big but,,,they would have probably done about the same with traditional methods.
i think you are reading far more into what I said. I said FRED failed miserably in his attempts. Doing something similar is not the same. I said "he can turn out a fairly obedient dog.....hunting/ht/ft not so much" the he being Fred. That said if the owner/creator of the system can't do it it is going to be an uphill battle for most using his system.
You say you don't know what he does so that makes a comparison to what to do apples to oranges. Can you honestly say yo would recommend this system to a novice trying to trim his first dog?
Fred was new to hunt tests. So he had a learning curve,,, if any "A" list retriever trainer crossed disciplines such as schutzhund or herding,,they to would seem clumsey or awkwardat first until they got in the groove of things. Fred could have gotten as good with HT's as he was with bite dogs if he put the time in. When I first started doing Schutzhund I suddenly became a duffus. As time went on I got smoother,yet I had been training dogs for 20 years or so before I started the sport
I know enough of what fred does to make a comparison. He is tap tap tap ...,,I am continuous. Same concept it falls under re-enforcement. Realize that i am not defending Fred I would say the same with any Tom Dick or Harry.
I assure you that his method and mine are similar enough to be in the sme category. Also never get put in a box , I use whatever will work Fred,Evan,Lardy Pat,,its all good if it works