long gun problems
okay so i finally finished my homemade wingers and took them out to train. my mistake was thinking that because we had worked on doubles i could set up a mock derby marking situation. big mistake and i know it. in the past we've trained with a group that primarily runs hunt tests so all the multiple marks are within 25 yard distance or so within each other and not too far off of each other. or if i had a helper id have them throw two dummies simulating a down the shore scenario on a treeline etc. so while i had one winger finished i worked on distance till i could get more finished. he was marking 275-300 yard singles pretty dang good.
so saturday i went out put wingers at 250 at about 2o'clock from the mat. throwing right to left. and then another winger at 125 at about 10.5 o'clock from the mat throwing right to left. kind of like i saw in the 1st series of a derby recently. planned on running as singles first then reloading them and run as double took the dog out used the car as a holding blind. to simulate actual scenario. then walked up sat on the mat. went through the routine of showing the guns. i planned on showing him the long gun first then the short gun. then back to long gun to throw the mark. couldnt even get him to look at long mark as soon as he came up he was locked in on short station. heeled him away and while he was heeling correctly body wise his head was still locked in over at the short station. i tried everything i knew walk off walk back up heeling on other side. finally put the dog up and took up short winger and just worked on long singles till i could get more advice
the only things i could think of were this: add stickmen although the wingers are made of pvc and clearly white. i had planned on this eventually just waiting to let the wife get over sticker shock of wingers first. but it seems that once i pulled short mark he keyed in on the long one fine so im not convinced that will do it. second thing was maybe this is something wagon wheel will fix? isnt wagon wheel supposed to get the dog looking out straight from where he's heeled? im just through swim by so ive got a ways to go before that comes up in TRT.
sadly the 4 derbies we planned on running in april and may are probably out of the question till we get this resolved (glad i didnt enter or book hotel yet) hopefully when fall season gets around we can run derbies and quals till he ages out next march
well i may have found the answer maybe not. took a potty break so i grabbed the lardy manual volume 3. read the teaching doubles section. he mentioned the bird in mouth which we've done. opposite sided marks (12 and 6)which we've done he mentioned put memory mark closer in relation to the go bird. but he has had these scenarios before like i said. hes had a 100 yard memory at 1 oclock shooting right to left and 75 yard go bird at 10 o clock shooting left to right. just not a "classic derby double" like lardy mentions not to make your first double. i was thinking we were past our first double thats why i set it up.
forgot to mention that my first inkling after the dilemma was to run short bird then do a bird in mouth for long bird. but i decided against it thinking well hed get the mark and expect another one from it because the winger would still be out there. so i just did the singles like i mentioned earlier
Slow down. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither is a Derby dog.
Very few dogs are ready for Derby at 12 months even with experienced trainers.
Cant diagnose a dog via the internet, but live gunners are invaluable when working on gunner recognition concepts
Good Luck & Enjoy the Ride
My thoughts exactly. Nothing worked better for my pup than having someone in the field that could wave their arms, yell hup, whatever. Sounds to me like you're trying to do this all alone. Find a training group, local pro, etc.
Originally Posted by mjh345
training groups around here focus more on HRC so they do more of the hidden gun stuff. obviously these are valuable tools but most of my training will focus on field trials and gunners. i still train with them but trying to make the transition over and right now it is alone
My field trial experience is minimal so take this FWIW. As has already been mentioned, I think you need a bird boy. Put your wife/child/buddy or neighborhood kid on a four wheeler. Take a bunch of plastic fence posts, coat hangers and old t-shirts and place them in configurations. Preferably where dog has to look past a short stickman to see the long marks. Give the kid a radio and send him to each stickman. At first this will require noise, movement, shots or all of the above to focus on the long mark. After a day or two the dog will start looking for the kid. Then go back to the wingers as the short gun and your helpful birdboy as the long gun. At the same time in the yard do here/heel drills such as wagon wheel.
Judging by your earlier threads, you have a large group of "buddies" that love to hunt in the timber with you. May be time for a little payback.:cool: Most young men would trade a few afternoons on a four wheeler throwing birds for a chance to kill ducks in the green timber. If I was closer, I would put my name in the hat.
So you didn't have a stickman or anything at the long station? Hang a white t-shirt on the winger at least. Wingers are already harder to pick out than people even with the white shirt. Something that's obvious to you might not be so obvious to the dog.
What Charles said. Also you can stick a chair out there, and have it wear a white shirt (slip shirt over back of chair).
In training with a group, in a situation like you describe the gunner would do something to get the dog's attention so that it will swing off the short gun, like wave arms or hey-hey it. If you are using remote release electronics with sound, use it. A quack or beep might get the dog's attention.
Baby steps, make it simple till dog figures it out. Move up till dog can pick out the gun...
Have you tried asking your group for help? You throw for them, they throw for you...
Coop them . I help you you help me. Have them standout or stand by the wingers. You need one long mark as a punch bird. Ask them to give at least hey hey before the winger is launched. Don't try white coats with them, you will get some flack with that one. Instead use your wingers. Reverse the order, cookie cutter tests, long bird as the go bird to the rehearsal, long bird as a single, then repeat as a double, with long as the memory. I have trained with HRC people many times, most of the time will accommodate you, although get used to some ribbing. My group got Evan to put on a Seminar and they now use white coats sometimes and have at least an understanding.. Don't try to change anyone or convert , use what you need, discard what you don't. You can't train derby dogs to be competitive at young age without people. A derby career last about six months , 18 to 24 months old. Sure there are exceptions have placed them at nine months, but, not without creating problems. You need the excitement level of groups.
Originally Posted by blake_mhoona
I think wingers are WAY different than real people...
If it were me,(actually it is, I am having same problem) I would shorten everything up, and teach the concept first, then as the the dog understands with short set ups, gradually add distance..
I hang a white shirt on both my wingers... Recently though, a person had stickmen from Butch green, that we had in the ground at the wingers. THAT made a difference for my dog.
Also, MY dog has MAJOR trouble seeing a bumper come out of a winger. I believe it comes out WAY to fast. Much faster than a hand thrown bird travels..
I put streamers, Changed colors(Black to white, white to black) and she still had trouble.
By shortening up the set ups, and getting her use to watching closely for the bumper, she has improved some, but I think wingers are very different for a dog to mark..