Well I've only spent a week with him...and he does FF, just not the traditional Carr way. I didn't go to great depth because you were talking AA type dogs. His claim to fame is centered more on early training, which is different from the other main out-of-the-box programs. Once you get to transition work, there isn't quite a HUGE difference. THere are still some. Bill is a cool guy and Mary is fantastic. You guys had a great opportunity by hosting them for a seminar. I HIGHLY recomend his seminars.
u r right Bill and mary are fantastic people but i beg to differ with u about advanced training
Bill has no timeline no transition and no flow chart he doesnt do wagon wheels or cold blinds he also uses his collar for positive reinforcement now that is a huge difference wouldnt u say???
we in australia really enjoyed their seminar like u we would highly recommend them
Originally Posted by Duckquilizer
LOL we are talking the same thing just different words. That area would still be considered a transition period, he just doesn't "call" it that... Different names but the same general idea. I suppose I was not being as specific as you about differences. ;-) I really like the puppy stuff and will give it a go on my next pup. The puppy marking made a huge impression on me. Lardy and others don't spent a great deal of time on this area. I suppose I should have said "soft collar" and "conditioned retrieve" when I was saying FF earlier. I like these ideas too and this area is considerably different in approach.
Originally Posted by stoney
u may be right and i may be wrong but i really dont see any transition at in Bills method at all i watched him teach a low drive golden retriever pup to do a walk out blind from that point he just increases the difficulty he took my FC and ran him on a couple of 400 yard walkout blinds from various starting points on highly technical terrain.His methodology was exactly the same as it was for the golden pup no transition just the same thing at a higher level. his fetch command in no way resembles any force fetch program i have ever seen in fact i think it is almost at polar opposites to traditional FF which utilizes escape and avoidance training
Here is an except from Bill's page...
Chapter 3 When you are satisfied that your dog understands the fetch command, you're ready then to reinforce a command they have learned. Bill demonstrates the timing of the sequence: Fetch - "nick" with the collar - GOOD!
This is shown in slow motion multiple times. Bill recommends that you practice this without a dog until you're positive you have the right timing. Make sure the Labrador retriever puppy training sessions are fun by interjecting excitement with fun retrieves. Don't sit in one spot and do fetch - "nick" - fetch. Do a little bit and go and do something else, come back to it, go to something else. Torch doesn't even know she's getting force fetched, but she is. Make sure the sessions are fun. When it gets to be not fun, it's not good training. Bill demonstrates ways to mix in other parts of training. If you overdo something, overdo the excitement, not the pressure. You start your sessions without the collar, you get your dog in the right frame of mind, in a working mode, retrieving, balanced with his/her temperament, so they can begin the learning process - leading into it slowly, then reinforce during the session, and ending on a happy note. It's got to get mixed up, it's got to be kept in balance. The only person who can make these decisions is the trainer. Keep the balance.
A dog must be happy and balanced and do the work in these Labrador and golden retriever training sessions. This is supposed to be fun for you and the dog. If your dog is not in balance, you're not training well. You have to monitor the balance of your dog moment by moment, especially with a young dog and at this stage of training. Every moment you monitor if they need more excitement, more discipline, more pressure, less pressure, more fun, less fun. It's just like a teeter-totter. Keep it balanced all the time. You want your dog to stay balanced, not to where you're continually bringing him/her up again; that'll become a habit, and it'll be a bad habit. You want a dog to stay level. It's crucial to having the dog of your dreams.
Its just a slightly different method for doing the same thing. I'm not knocking you, I really like his way and will use it. It has a very nice flow to it. Its not quite as abrupt as putting them on a table and doing an ear pinch. I like that alot. Good luck using his info and learning from others as well. That's why there are several different programs, so you can find one you like to make your base from.
Stoney, I'm very impressed with how quickly you have picked up on the important philosophical aspects of Hillmann's methods after only a weekend seminar. I agree with your comments.
The problem with using terminology like force fetch and transition to make comparisons is that these terms have significant connotative meaning in non-Hillmann context, which is either not applicable or drastically different in meaning, philosophy and application in the Hillmann context.
I would be very interested in a discussion comparing Hillmann to other methods, particularly from your perspective. I think that discussion would need to focus on specific philosophy, concepts and methods rather than terminology that means different things to different people.
thanks for your input t pines and duckquilizer its great to be able to have a discussion without the oneupmanship and agro of other threads
can i start with the term transition which i believe generally means to retriever trainers a set of procedures designed to move a dog from basics to advanced work and in particular to transition to cold blinds/Bill doesnt do this because he almost never does cold blinds period Over 90% of Bills blinds are walkout blinds he begins the procedure when he has a pup and just increases the complexity of task thats all!!!!.He does the same thing on the 7 bumper drill he can make this drill applicable to land, water slopeing terrain etc as the pup progresses
Fantastic thread! Thanks for sharing your experiences, Stoney. Just starting to discover Hillman's methods and because of this thread am 1000 times more interested.
Jennifer, anyone training a puppy should have his puppy video. Larry, it's still in my truck lol
How does one get a "big picture" of his "program" if there's no seminar in the near future? I've looked at several of his video snippets and have been to his web site to see dvd titles. Is there a book or summary of his total philosophy somewhere? I couldn't find it. Especially interested in what Stoney said about walkout blinds and no cold blinds or wagons - just ramping up the walk out blinds. I've been using this method, too - but in conjunction with Lardy's style transition methods. Which dvd does Hillman talk about this? The Fundamentals on Land and water?
I'm going to buy them, but would like to hear what people in the know have to say.