Ken, I thought Zim's narrative was that the 911 dispatcher told Zim to not continue to follow Martin; and that Martin confronted Zim as Zim was returning to his truck/car.
If Zim was returning to his car, this was a better thing to do than having a confrontation with a suspicious character who might be aggressive or armed. If the fellow was up to no good, even just attempting to have a pleasant chat could be confrontational.
If Zim had done as you suggest, is it possible that Martin assaulted him as a result of the approach? Martin was no altar boy. He had a track record of getting into fights in various situations. If Martin really did consider Zim a "creepy-ass cracker", is it possible that he would not have been receptive to Zim asking him what he was doing in the neighborhood?
I'm not sure that they are going to allow any info about Martin's previous history of fighting presented.
Is it strange that the girlfriend heard nothing as Martin and Zim confronted each other? No words exchanged between them before the phone went dead? And there is the fact that the phone was found in Martin's pocket ... not in his hand; not dropped on the ground. This might indicate that he had hung up the phone; put it in his pocket so his hands were free to confront Zim. This would not tell us whether Zim was moving toward Martin ... or the other way around.
seeing as Zim was aggressive, and armed. it would be a non issue.
Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy
I still maintain, walk right up..."Hello Young Man, how are you this eve? My name is ____, may I help you find an address?"
no sulking, no skulking, no creeping back of the bush on the telephone going "waa waa waa" to the overworked police dis. Just a direct walk up and a friendly face and firm handshake. Zim had nothing to fear as HE HAD HIS OWN GUN! But not what he did at all. This guy went deer hunting. Been saying it from the start.
On another note...............Funny you should say that. Well before I read this post of yours I had been reading what the people said ( on the stand at the trial ) that they 'thought' they saw on that rainy night. Having reached my deer 'stand' as a kid and it being well before daylight I can tell anybody that what stuff looks like in those conditions is not what they turn out to be in full daylight ( and I was well aquainted with the area around my deer stand ). And I agree with you........."Z" was out to get someone.
Originally Posted by Ken Bora
Gerry makes a good point. Was Zim returning to his car and who was the confronter, Martin or Zimmerman Who was the attacker?
Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy
I don't know how the Neighborhood Watch program works. It seems likely that if you see something out of the ordinary as a member of the Neighborhood Watch program, you call the police. Remember, this was a gated community that had burglaries and perhaps other crimes which was why it had a Neighborhood Watch program.
I think it is too soon in the trial to make judgments. There is more testimony to hear.
I just looked up the Neighborhood Watch program.
It has also been reported that this particular gated community had 402 reports of break-ins and burglaries within the past two years. It was the police who suggested to the neighborhood that they start a Neighborhood Watch program to cut down on crime. This was not a wealthy gated community of single homes. It's rentals -- townhouses and apartments. Apparently by putting in a Neighborhood Watch program, there had been a drop in crime there. I don't have first hand experience with Neighborhood Watch, but I do know that when such a program exists in a neighborhood, there are signs all over the place saying it is a Neighborhood Watch area. It seems to me, if you don't live there, the signs would tell you that you don't belong there and that someone will be watching you.
Photos of Trayvon Martin at the age of 12 and 15 are still appearing on TV channels. More current photos should be used. He was not a little 12 year old kid.
Martin was 6'3" tall.
Zimmerman is 5'9".
UPDATE: Martin's height of 6'3" may be wrong. Another report says 6'2". Another report says 5'11". About the only thing conclusive is that he was taller than Zimmerman.
I was living in a strange old part of Atlanta when I was 21. I was out in the very isolated, wooded back of the carriage hose I was renting. It was beautiful, and I am sure that every main house to the east and west for half a mile was empty. To the west beyond that half mile was a very unsavory piece of urban Atlanta, and occasionally it overlapped.
So I was out in the dark in the middle of the night with the puppy and I sensed someone, and then I smelled him. I had a good sense of where he was, but couldn't see or hear him... For sure. I was terrified.
My first thought was, "I wish I had a gun." By the time I picked up puppy and stumbled through the dark and inside, I thought, "thank God I didn't have a gun, or I would have shot a homeless man for for sleeping ing the woods."
Twenty-plus years later, I still don't know for sure that a hand gun in the same situation would be a smart or fair idea for me, personally, to have with me in that type of situation, though I think about it.
I certainly think it was legal for Zimmerman to have a hand gun. I am pretty sure it was dumb and unfair, and he should be held accountable for what he did with it--not just the shot itself, but the emotions and behaviors that led up to that point. He is, after all, an adult, and should know enough about himself to know whether having a loaded gun with him is a good idea...
Wow, that was poorly written! Pardon my decision not to edit, though.
I thought it was written well. I understood what you were saying.
Originally Posted by luvalab
By the way I had been wondering about some things. What kind of gun ( found on the net it was a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm ), if there was blood on the front of "Z"s shirt he was wearing when he shot Martin ( or did Martin fall to the side fast enough to keep "Z"s shirt free from blood stains ) and lots of other stuff which I can't remember right now. I figured if Martin was shot and died while being on top that there could have been a quick flow of blood. I know almost nothing about guns and nothing about people being shot with guns.
P.S. That pistol is a semi-automatic.
I'm not sure if I care what Zimmerman was doing while surveilling Tray-von up until the situation became physical. Perfectly allowable for me to watch or even trail someone in my neighborhood who looks suspicious to me. I have been known to drive around the block a couple of times to keep an eye on someone I didn't recognize to just see if they kept on going. The town where I live seems to be filled with thieves and I am pretty interested in anyone I see on foot on my street. The neighborhood isn't particularly well lit and I might be a bit hesitant to walk up to someone at night. I might just try to keep a safe distance and watch until the person left the area or entered a house. If I lost track of the them and then they confronted me and punched me in the face and knocked me to the ground and then straddled my chest and began slamming my head into the concrete, I might feel justified in using whatever means I had to make them stop. I have to say that there have been enough robberies in my area that if someone shoots some burglar (and I don't especially care if the miscreant is 14 or 40) I really hope to be on the jury so that at the end of the trial I can shake his hand and give him 20 bucks for another box of rounds. Perhaps that was something of what Zimmerman was thinking too, but unless he initiated the physical portion of the affair, I don't care. Tray-von was no choirboy and Zimmerman clearly had reason to be suspicious of anyone he didn't recognize in the neighborhood. He may have been hunting, but as long as he didn't attack Tray-von, I don't think he crossed any lines. I can easily believe that Tray-von looped back and jumped Zimmerman. OOPS! It is my understanding that in our justice system every defendant walks into the room innocent until the state proves that they are in fact guilty. For me to consider Zimmerman guilty they are going to have to prove that took the first swing. Since the only person who actually saw the total encounter is Zimmerman, they would have a pretty tall task.
I am not going to rush to judgement on whether Z is innocent or guilty or what his motives were
he and many like him are a perfect example of why some neighborhood watch groups are a bad idea when staffed by people who have little to no training in dealing with the potential criminal element and although they are entitled to own a gun, one of the first rules of carrying one is to make sure it isnt used as a weapon against you...I am no LEO, but I was always taught if you carry a gun for self defense, you better be willing to pull it if necessary and know the ramifications once you do draw one...