The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: No Need to Memorize Times Tables

  1. #1
    Senior Member GaryJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    704

    Default No Need to Memorize Times Tables

    Maybe I am out of the education system too long but this makes absolutely no sense to me. If understand this correctly as long as one can justify how they got the wrong answer that is fine. With abstract items that render an opinion that its fine but with factual items? Give me a break! I can't imagine the education of kids coming out of high school in the future if we follow this logic.

    http://news.yahoo.com/obama-math-und...151805230.html
    Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

    What if all we have today is what we gave thanks for yesterday?

    Let the views of others educate and inform you, but let your decisions be a product of your own conclusions. (Jim Rohn)

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL
    Posts
    2,953

    Default

    I had a roommate in college who completed a physics test problem with the answer in parens and a strange symbol showing next to it.

    When the tests were handed back, he was called on it. "Brian! What was that strange symbol next to the answer in number 5.?"

    To which he answered, "It's Von Gunten's factor. It's the number you multiply your answer by to get the right answer."

    The professor chuckled and finished marking his paper and gave it back to him....an "A".

    Two weeks later there was another test. A friend used the same funny squiggle and turned it in.

    When the tests were handed back, he'd gotten -10 for that answer. "Wait a minute" he said. That's Von Guntens factor." The professor told him that he wasn't advanced enough in his understanding of physics to know when to apply that factor.

    What Brian didn't reveal to anyone was that indeed he'd gotten the problem correct on the first test.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  3. #3
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    626

    Default

    I thought the speaker stated that the process was more important than the answer. So if the student showed the work and got all the steps right, except the step at the end, writing 11 instead of 12 he (student) would not be marked wrong for the equation. In math some teacher who do not understand the concepts give full credit or no credit, but a teacher who understands the concepts can give partial credit, but the main thing is to make sure the student understands the concept and has not just memorized a table. To me that is the better way to teach math.

    Terri

  4. #4
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    7,130

    Default

    If the kid can't get the answer to the simple equation... How the hell can you or anyone say they understand the "concept"? WTH? No wonder our kids are so screwed up.
    Bill Davis

  5. #5
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    626

    Default

    Bill, are you directing your question to me? If so then let me explain my point. The example from the video was a very simple problem, but in math as you move up into more complex problems there are many step before you get the answer to the problem. If the student had seven steps of the problem right(all work is shown), but for some reason wrote the wrong answer would you say the student does not understand the concept? The speaker explained that the student was able to show the work, explain the steps, but made an error. The teacher would show the student the correct final step, but would not discount the student's understanding of how to do the problem. All my kids were in the top math classes in high school and I have seen teachers that understand math concepts and ones that just know the answer in the back of the book. I think the reason so many people shy away from math has to do with poor math teachers. Teachers that can not think outside of the box. My oldest daughter who has her law degree is now in a doctorate program for economics, but she has dealings (her husband's best friends wife) with a woman who is a high school honors math teacher who can not divide a check from a restaurant between multiple couples. This woman made it through school, but she clearly can not apply the concepts to the real world. It is very common to have math errors, but do not discount the concept or an error.

    Terri

  6. #6
    Senior Member GaryJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    704

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Terri View Post
    Bill, are you directing your question to me? If so then let me explain my point. The example from the video was a very simple problem, but in math as you move up into more complex problems there are many step before you get the answer to the problem. If the student had seven steps of the problem right(all work is shown), but for some reason wrote the wrong answer would you say the student does not understand the concept? The speaker explained that the student was able to show the work, explain the steps, but made an error. The teacher would show the student the correct final step, but would not discount the student's understanding of how to do the problem. All my kids were in the top math classes in high school and I have seen teachers that understand math concepts and ones that just know the answer in the back of the book. I think the reason so many people shy away from math has to do with poor math teachers. Teachers that can not think outside of the box. My oldest daughter who has her law degree is now in a doctorate program for economics, but she has dealings (her husband's best friends wife) with a woman who is a high school honors math teacher who can not divide a check from a restaurant between multiple couples. This woman made it through school, but she clearly can not apply the concepts to the real world. It is very common to have math errors, but do not discount the concept or an error.

    Terri
    i agree when it is "higher" math however unless something has changed, which is possible, the earlier years of education were based on absolutes or facts and starting around 6th grade the education of abstract came into play. 4*3 =12 is not "higher" math.
    Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

    What if all we have today is what we gave thanks for yesterday?

    Let the views of others educate and inform you, but let your decisions be a product of your own conclusions. (Jim Rohn)

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Shelbyville, Tn
    Posts
    1,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Terri View Post
    Bill, are you directing your question to me? If so then let me explain my point. The example from the video was a very simple problem, but in math as you move up into more complex problems there are many step before you get the answer to the problem. If the student had seven steps of the problem right(all work is shown), but for some reason wrote the wrong answer would you say the student does not understand the concept? The speaker explained that the student was able to show the work, explain the steps, but made an error. The teacher would show the student the correct final step, but would not discount the student's understanding of how to do the problem. All my kids were in the top math classes in high school and I have seen teachers that understand math concepts and ones that just know the answer in the back of the book. I think the reason so many people shy away from math has to do with poor math teachers. Teachers that can not think outside of the box. My oldest daughter who has her law degree is now in a doctorate program for economics, but she has dealings (her husband's best friends wife) with a woman who is a high school honors math teacher who can not divide a check from a restaurant between multiple couples. This woman made it through school, but she clearly can not apply the concepts to the real world. It is very common to have math errors, but do not discount the concept or an error.

    Terri
    Terrie, I think you present the opinion of many teachers. To be sure, it is important to understand the concept but it is also just as important that you get the right answer. Let me give you an example. I am retired but when I practiced dentistry I can imagine if I explained to that a root canal that I performed for you failed because I wrote down the wrong lenth for the root. I understood the concept and technique of performing a root canal and did them perfectly and had I not written down the incorrect length of the root, it would have been a success. Well, in the real world, understanding the concept IS NOT ENOUGH. You also have to get the right answer. In the real world if you get the wrong answer, many times you are fired. It may be ok in the world of academia to only understand the concept and you may keep your job as long as you choose, but that is not the real world.

    Take the example of the honors teacher of whom you speak. Do you really think anyone would keep her employed as a statistian, accountant, acutary or even a bookeeper? I think not. If one teaches the belief that understanding the concept is so important and that getting the right answer is only secondary, then they are doing the student just as much disservice as the teacher that can only come up with the correct answer by looking in the back of the book. I am not trying to put words in Huntinman's mouth but I think that is what he is driving at.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    626

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GaryJ View Post
    i agree when it is "higher" math however unless something has changed, which is possible, the earlier years of education were based on absolutes or facts and starting around 6th grade the education of abstract came into play. 4*3 =12 is not "higher" math.
    I think the speaker was using an overly simplistic example, but even when it comes to multiplication some teachers teach it as a concept, requiring the student to show all the steps needed to get the answer, not just memorize the times table. For example: the student would have to show 4*3=12 in a word problem with pictures for each step. Explaining the steps with the examples is always harder for students than just memorizing a function. If your child comes home with 30 math problems each requiring steps and examples, all of which need to be different you will soon realize how much harder this is than memorizing a times table.
    I have had many friends that spent many hours each night working through these types of problems. My nephew is in 6 grade this year and my sister over the years has called to brain storm math examples with each of my kids more times than I care to remember. Remember besides the math homework there are several other subjects that require homework each night. Algebra is no longer a junior high school subject, but can be seen in 3rd and 4th grade. Teacher's do not get to come up with what subjects will be covered over the school year, there are state standards, which are always changing and tests that much be passed at a stated level to insure funding. I have seen the list and all I can say is I'm glad I'm not a teacher and all three of my kids ranked high among their peers on standardized test and on daily work requiring only minimal parental involvement.

    Terri


    Terri

  9. #9
    Senior Member luvmylabs23139's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    3,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Terri View Post
    I thought the speaker stated that the process was more important than the answer. So if the student showed the work and got all the steps right, except the step at the end, writing 11 instead of 12 he (student) would not be marked wrong for the equation. In math some teacher who do not understand the concepts give full credit or no credit, but a teacher who understands the concepts can give partial credit, but the main thing is to make sure the student understands the concept and has not just memorized a table. To me that is the better way to teach math.

    Terri
    OK dating myself but until we got into advanced math and science classes there was no partial credit for a basic math question. This would have been about 3rd or 4th grade times tables.
    3X4 is something you should know off the top of your head not something that requires a long complex calculation. How many times of any of us gone to the store and if a kid is running the register and they enter the wrong amount of cash you give them, they have no idea what the correct amount of change is?
    Hihope Hiland Heathen of Perth CD, RE, CGC, TDI

  10. #10
    Senior Member luvmylabs23139's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    3,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Terrie, I think you present the opinion of many teachers. To be sure, it is important to understand the concept but it is also just as important that you get the right answer. Let me give you an example. I am retired but when I practiced dentistry I can imagine if I explained to that a root canal that I performed for you failed because I wrote down the wrong lenth for the root. I understood the concept and technique of performing a root canal and did them perfectly and had I not written down the incorrect length of the root, it would have been a success. Well, in the real world, understanding the concept IS NOT ENOUGH. You also have to get the right answer. In the real world if you get the wrong answer, many times you are fired. It may be ok in the world of academia to only understand the concept and you may keep your job as long as you choose, but that is not the real world.

    Take the example of the honors teacher of whom you speak. Do you really think anyone would keep her employed as a statistian, accountant, acutary or even a bookeeper? I think not. If one teaches the belief that understanding the concept is so important and that getting the right answer is only secondary, then they are doing the student just as much disservice as the teacher that can only come up with the correct answer by looking in the back of the book. I am not trying to put words in Huntinman's mouth but I think that is what he is driving at.
    Lets take this to a real life situation. Say it is a payroll clerk calculating someone's paycheck. How many wrong paychecks would be reasonable if they simply oops on the final answer but proved out their work thru 6 of 7 of the calculations? Yes a realize that a lot is automated these days but manual checks are still done for numerous reasons and the point is that the person would be fired unless of course they work for the gov't. Then they would just be sitting at home collecting a full paycheck.
    Hihope Hiland Heathen of Perth CD, RE, CGC, TDI

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •