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Thread: Religious Rights or Gay Rights?

  1. #21
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    Then you heard that Francis put the church in a tale spin on this issue very recently with a few simply words.
    No not really,,,,so I just googled it. It doesn't surprise me,,its a great way to fix the problem that they have right now in their priesthood and it makes them be seen as tolerant. Kind of like illegal immigration,,if you just say its OK it no longer is illegal or in the catholic church case,what was once a blemish and a evil problem is now squeeky clean OK. ,,, its the way the world is going if you hadn't noticed.
    And because the Pope carries a lot of weight he will influence many ,,, II cor 4 :4 still holds true today.

    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  2. #22
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryJ View Post
    I would like to know how that would work.
    Easy, its known as minding one's own buisness and allowing for Free Will.

    Don't like guns, then don't own one.
    Don't like gay marriage, then don't have one.
    Don't like abortion, don't have one.
    Don't like drugs, then don't do them.

    and, on and on.

    A truely free people do NOT need the nanny state Repubs and Dems!
    Changing the Presidential Debates to allow Liberty on the stage will change America. You can help. Go to Our America's Debate Challenge to learn how you can help.

  3. #23
    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Easy, its known as minding one's own buisness and allowing for Free Will.

    Don't like guns, then don't own one.
    Don't like gay marriage, then don't have one.
    Don't like abortion, don't have one.
    Don't like drugs, then don't do them.

    and, on and on.

    A truely free people do NOT need the nanny state Repubs and Dems!
    As the LIBS say "can't we all just get along".........CRAZY! Pure Democracy is chaos!

  4. #24
    Senior Member GaryJ's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Franco
    What if instead people just decided they didn't know what was best for other people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Easy, its known as minding one's own buisness and allowing for Free Will.

    Don't like guns, then don't own one.
    Don't like gay marriage, then don't have one.
    Don't like abortion, don't have one.
    Don't like drugs, then don't do them.

    and, on and on.

    A truely free people do NOT need the nanny state Repubs and Dems!
    I had to go back to the original thread to be sure I responded correctly.

    IMHO some do need to decide what is best for others or we have nothing but chaos. Using your example of guns and free will as an example I expect that someone with a gun will shoot someone without a gun and that is ok because the shooter had free will to own one and use it as they saw fit and the one that didn't own a gun can't domain because free will was exercised by both parties.

    i am all for the fed govt to be less intrusive in my life. I would much rather more things be decided at the state level and the county and local level. If that was your message then I agree. If you message was truly to be a nation of free will then I respectfully disagree.
    What if all we have today is what we gave thanks for yesterday?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
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    I will mind my own business as long as you stay out of my business. Once you step over the line you will lose your free will.

    Guns are fine as long as you do not point it at me or my loved ones.
    Marry whoever you want, but do not force me to attend or pat you on the back.
    If you have an abortion do not expect me to pay for it or understand that it is your body.
    As for doing drugs, do not get behind the wheel of a car or walk up to me looking for some money.

    With freedom comes great responsibility.

    Terri

  6. #26
    Senior Member GaryJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terri View Post
    I will mind my own business as long as you stay out of my business. Once you step over the line you will lose your free will.

    Guns are fine as long as you do not point it at me or my loved ones.
    Marry whoever you want, but do not force me to attend or pat you on the back.
    If you have an abortion do not expect me to pay for it or understand that it is your body.
    As for doing drugs, do not get behind the wheel of a car or walk up to me looking for some money.

    With freedom comes great responsibility.

    Terri
    Exactly. Everyone's free will may be different since there are no rules. In the end - chaos.
    What if all we have today is what we gave thanks for yesterday?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Franco
    What if instead people just decided they didn't know what was best for other people?



    I had to go back to the original thread to be sure I responded correctly.

    IMHO some do need to decide what is best for others or we have nothing but chaos. Using your example of guns and free will as an example I expect that someone with a gun will shoot someone without a gun and that is ok because the shooter had free will to own one and use it as they saw fit and the one that didn't own a gun can't domain because free will was exercised by both parties.

    i am all for the fed govt to be less intrusive in my life. I would much rather more things be decided at the state level and the county and local level. If that was your message then I agree. If you message was truly to be a nation of free will then I respectfully disagree.
    I am NOT talking Anarchy, just that people should have the freedom to determine their own destiny. Freedom from the big government types that oppose individual Liberty. The Golden Rule comes into play.

    From the Libertarian Preamble at LP.org

    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

    We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

    Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power. The first paragraph in this article could have been taken right out of the Deist Thomas Jefferson's Bible. http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/the-p...anism-with-new
    Last edited by Franco; 08-26-2013 at 08:24 AM.
    Changing the Presidential Debates to allow Liberty on the stage will change America. You can help. Go to Our America's Debate Challenge to learn how you can help.

  8. #28
    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    I am NOT talking Anarchy, just that people should have the freedom to determine their own destiny. Freedom from the big government types that oppose individual Liberty. The Golden Rule comes into play.

    From the Libertarian Preamble at LP.org

    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

    We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

    Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power. The first paragraph in this article could have been taken right out of the Deist Thomas Jefferson's Bible. http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/the-p...anism-with-new
    Franco....life through "Rose Colored Glasses"....If a person is a traditional Christian, that person would believe that abortion at anytime is against God's commandments.....Libertarian thinking, would say, it is ok to have an abortion based on the individuals right to Liberty (again we can debate when that child is in fact a child, but if Libertarians follow this individual rights thinking, then as a society, we are immoral, based on many Christian beliefs... This is just 'One" example how the Utopian world that Libertarians talk about! If you say on abortion, Libertarians make an exception, society at some level (Local, State, or Fed) sets rules...if this is how you think then we are just changing who makes the rules....you still have someone at the top setting rules and laws of our society. The best form of Government found to work historically is a representative Republic in the good ole USA...

  9. #29
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampcollielover View Post
    Franco....life through "Rose Colored Glasses"....If a person is a traditional Christian, that person would believe that abortion at anytime is against God's commandments.....Libertarian thinking, would say, it is ok to have an abortion based on the individuals right to Liberty (again we can debate when that child is in fact a child, but if Libertarians follow this individual rights thinking, then as a society, we are immoral, based on many Christian beliefs... This is just 'One" example how the Utopian world that Libertarians talk about! If you say on abortion, Libertarians make an exception, society at some level (Local, State, or Fed) sets rules...if this is how you think then we are just changing who makes the rules....you still have someone at the top setting rules and laws of our society. The best form of Government found to work historically is a representative Republic in the good ole USA...
    First of all, members of the LP are divided on the abortion issue. In the platform, that decision is left up to the individual. Your Totalitarian view is not acceptable to most. No one is talking about a Utopian society but you! We on the other hand are all about personal responsibility and we don't need your big government or self-righteous beliefs infringing on our rights! Your view is anything but Conservative, it is just more big government with a different twist. Also note that the LP is the ONLY political party to take a stand for Gun Rights and the only political party to champion a Balanced Budget Amendment!
    Changing the Presidential Debates to allow Liberty on the stage will change America. You can help. Go to Our America's Debate Challenge to learn how you can help.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    First of all, members of the LP are divided on the abortion issue. In the platform, that decision is left up to the individual. Your Totalitarian view is not acceptable to most. No one is talking about a Utopian society but you! We on the other hand are all about personal responsibility and we don't need your big government or self-righteous beliefs infringing on our rights! Your view is anything but Conservative, it is just more big government with a different twist. Also note that the LP is the ONLY political party to take a stand for Gun Rights and the only political party to champion a Balanced Budget Amendment!
    Going by your LP premise given:

    On abortion: I would have to say that if science determined the moment when a fetus became a person, the LP view would have to grant that person the same rights as everyone else. Would that be accurate? The problem with abortion now is that there is no agreed upon definition of when the fetus becomes a person. In the case of abortion when the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother, then it would seem that the abortion is a matter of "self-defense", and would be a non-issue in that regard.

    Actually, if we could resolve the issue of when a fetus becomes a person, the Constitution would also make it clear that the rights of the fetus were protected. Privacy of the mother's body would not be an issue .. if you kill someone in the privacy of your own home, the privacy issue does not trump the murder infringing on the right to life of the person who is murdered (presuming the appropriate safeguards to the rights of the accused).

    On gay rights: It would seem that LGBTs would have the legal rights through civil union, but when their right to those civil equalities would interfere with someone else's religious beliefs, those who disagreed could not be forced to participate. I can only see that as an issue when religious ceremonies are involved. Housing, restaurants, employment, i.e. non-religious activities, would not be at issue. Would that be accurate? I believe that Hobby Lobby employed people who were LGBT, but simply would not participate in paying for abortion-inducing drugs.

    When we talk of other civil liberties equality, they do not pertain to things that would interfere with the first amendment rights of others, i.e. compelling the actions of the landlord or restaurant owner to "accept" the religious orientation of the other party.

    In some ways it may be similar to the RC church having a man-made law about celibacy for their priests ... but that is a church "custom" rather than God's law. Thus, the RC priest, who is celibate still performs heterosexual marriage rites for those who choose not to be celibate. The choice of celibacy is left to the individual's "calling." Personally, I think it is more rational for priests to be allowed to marry so they can understand the issues of marriage first-hand, especially when they are called upon to act as marriage counselors.

    The OP raises the question of whether there is freedom to NOT participate in the religious beliefs of someone else. I can participate in a Jewish wedding because the values of Judaism WRT marriage are akin to Christian ones. I would have a problem participating in a wedding of a faith that condoned multiple wives.
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