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Thread: First Master Test question re "Challenging the Blind"

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Judging is part objective, part subjective. The latter will always play a large role in judging and is by its nature difficult to express in precise terms. In defense of the diagram, I would say

    1. The diagram equalizes information. In the Open, pros are looking over your shoulder, trying to get a peek of your judging book, so that they can see the reference points you consider important. They try to overhear conversations between judges. They note when a judge closes his/her book. They are sharing this information with one another. Through this process, they are able to glean a great deal about what the judges consider important. Pity the poor Amateur who comes to the Open after running his dog - maybe is given a chance to watch one or two dogs run - and then is sent into the maelstrom.

    Why not make the critical information about your blind available to everyone?

    2. If you want to see something, why not improve your chances of seeing it? If I want a dog to the right of that weed clump, why not tell the handlers - instead of whispering to my co- judge "Why aren't they casting inside of that bush?". "Or why are they getting on the tip of the point on this water blind instead of on the fat of the point?" If it's important to you, ask for it!

    In one trial that I judged, my co-judge and I wrote something to the effect of "The judge believe that the shoulders of both mounds are on line". That was placed in the holding blind. A handler who had a very stylish dog elected to make no effort to hit either shoulder. I heard people in the gallery say "Didn't he read the note in the holding blind?" I like that. I like that the contestants know what is important to me.

    3. As I mentioned earlier, the diagram only shows the "ideal" line to the blind, it does not replace judging. A dog may hit all the markers, but if it is stopped 20 times in route, exhibits poor style, and/or had poor marks, it is gone - because judging in a FT is both relative and cumulative. I realize that there will be complaining from the gallery because dogs that hit all the markers are dropped, and those that do not are carried. But, as Greg mentioned, a lot goes into judging a dog that you never truly appreciate until you sit in the chair.

    I have yet to judge the field trial where everyone approved of my work. I doubt it will ever happen. I do believe that over the course of a judging career, you establish your own book. My goal is to be known for having tough tests, generous callbacks, and consistent placements. Time will tell whether I am successful. Being popular is not important to me. But, I don't want to be known - as some judges are - for having mystery criteria.

    I think the diagram eliminates mystery.

    4. I think that the diagram can make the blind harder. Any experienced judge has a story about an Open where the pros decided to make their own criteria for the blind. When I put a diagram out - I am telling you what I want. If a handler makes no effort to abide by my diagram, I can only infer that he/she is incapable of controlling the dog as requested, or the dog is incapable of carrying the necessary casts. A blind is a test of control and if a handler makes no effort to demonstrate the control requested - there will be consequences. Sometimes this means a dog is dropped, sometimes it means that a dog's scores are diminished. But, like Bill, I make note when handlers make no effort to run my blind - as illustrated.

    Because I believe that the line to the blind is not always obvious, when I give you my diagram - it is obvious. There is no excuse for the handler not to attempt to run my blind.

    5. I don't think it requires too much work to draw the diagram. I am going to put the critical markers on my master diagram anyway. I simply draw over my master diagram and leave the copy in the holding blind.

    Ted
    Very well put...I believe the answer to the OP's question has been answered...TRY to run the blind as best you can..#3...Steve S....PS:same for HT...
    Last edited by steve schreiner; 09-02-2013 at 11:17 PM.
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post

    If you draw a diagram with the obstacles, and tell handlers that the line is the "ideal" line, you have

    1. Shown them what you think is important;
    2. But, have still left yourself running room.

    You have not announced any "mandatory" criteria, and in any field trial, work is based on relative work on a given test and cumulative work through the trial

    The problem with the mantra that the line to the blind is "obvious" is that FT after FT, experienced handlers discover what they thought the line to the blind was, was not what the judges thought that it was

    Ted
    The lazer "line to the blind" is a STRAIGHT line from point A to point B, to say that it could be be anything else is curious at best ..... now, if you are saying that one needs a diagram to figure out YOUR line because of the irregularities of your "corridor" to the blind, causing it to NOT be semetrical about the lazer/center line, and containing one or more drop dead points that are actually on or near center , just say so...........

    john
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  3. #123
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    Mr. Ted, thanks for that post. From your post and the others on this thread, it appears that the following statements are generally true:

    1. It helps to have a diagram or some other indication of what the line is in the judges' minds.
    2. Running that line is a safe harbor of sorts, but it may not be the only way to successfully run that blind.
    3. Running the safe harbor line does not mean you will be successful, particularly in the FT game. There are other things to be considered in making that determination.
    4. In the end, you do the best job you can do and move on. At worst you got to hang out with your dog a couple days.
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  4. #124
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    Mr. Ted, thanks for that post. From your post and the others on this thread, it appears that the following statements are generally true:

    1. It helps to have a diagram or some other indication of what the line is in the judges' minds.

    I believe so. Others disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post

    2. Running that line is a safe harbor of sorts, but it may not be the only way to successfully run that blind.

    I guess what I would say is that it is not - in the strictest sense - a "line." If it were, we would be requiring the dogs to navigate a path one inch wide and punishing them for a failure to do so. Rather, it is a "corridor." The contours of that "corridor" vary.

    For example
    - Paul says that you should stay 5 yards on either side of the imaginary line. See post 4. His corridor is shaped like this - "="
    - Gary tells you that his corridor is narrow at the beginning and wide at the end. See post 30. His corridor is shaped like this - "V"
    - I know FT judges who believe the corridor is narrow at the beginning and end, but wide in the middle. Their corridors are shaped like a football -"()"

    In a FT, the judges have "corridors" not "lines". Those "corridors" vary. That is why I like to use diagrams when I judge.


    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    3. Running the safe harbor line does not mean you will be successful, particularly in the FT game. There are other things to be considered in making that determination.

    For starters, in a FT, there is no standard. Work is judged relatively - that is, how did you do compared to the field. Work is also judged cumulatively - that is, how does your body of work in the FT stack up to what others have done. Moreover, "style" is an element that judges consider too. If you toe the line, but crawl along the line, maybe your lack of "style" results in a drop. So, yes, there are many factors.


    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post

    4. In the end, you do the best job you can do and move on. At worst you got to hang out with your dog a couple days.
    Yes, you run your dog and give it your best shot.
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    DING, DING. As a judge this is what you would need to understand from me. There is the mat, draw a straight line to the blind. If the 1st point is not on that straight line then swim by it, if the 2nd point is on the straight line then get on & off. Simple!!
    I would rather see someone use 5 whistles and keep the dog on the straight line than a dog that runs a banana line and uses one whistle. Blinds are about teamwork and control, IMO. If your dog can run a straight line great, if not show me the two of you can illustrate control along with teamwork.


    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    There's only one way to run a blind. Stand on the mat and look at the pin. Then do your best to hit everything that's in the way. If the judge doesn't like it, I'll go home. But I'm always going to try to run a perfect blind ... not worry about what I "have to do".
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  6. #126
    Senior Member Wade's Avatar
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    Could someone expand on this quote that came out of the Standards regarding blinds? I need a bit of clarification.

    "Utilizing natural hazards should obviate the need for Judges issuing special instructions about the manner of completing a blind retrieve, other than to “get the meat’’ by the shortest, fastest, or most direct route"
    I hate rude behavior in a man, won't tolerate it. Captain Woodrow Call

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wade View Post
    Could someone expand on this quote that came out of the Standards regarding blinds? I need a bit of clarification.

    "Utilizing natural hazards should obviate the need for Judges issuing special instructions about the manner of completing a blind retrieve, other than to “get the meat’’ by the shortest, fastest, or most direct route"
    I read that to mean use humps, bumps . patches of cover, water, logs, points of land, islands on line to the blind...The fastest, most direct route implies a straight line....I also believe that LINE comes with a window, fair way or what every you want to call it some distance on both sides of the line.. That line should be plainly discernible to contestants with out any input from the judge...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  8. #128

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    All judges should remember: "Never, ever tell the handlers they must hit/avoid such and such an object."
    Then call back a dog that clearly missed/hit the object.
    You already are in a hole do not dig deeper.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Good Dogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Judging is part objective, part subjective. The latter will always play a large role in judging and is by its nature difficult to express in precise terms. In defense of the diagram, I would say

    1. The diagram equalizes information. In the Open, pros are looking over your shoulder, trying to get a peek of your judging book, so that they can see the reference points you consider important. They try to overhear conversations between judges. They note when a judge closes his/her book. They are sharing this information with one another. Through this process, they are able to glean a great deal about what the judges consider important. Pity the poor Amateur who comes to the Open after running his dog - maybe is given a chance to watch one or two dogs run - and then is sent into the maelstrom.

    Why not make the critical information about your blind available to everyone?

    2. If you want to see something, why not improve your chances of seeing it? If I want a dog to the right of that weed clump, why not tell the handlers - instead of whispering to my co- judge "Why aren't they casting inside of that bush?". "Or why are they getting on the tip of the point on this water blind instead of on the fat of the point?" If it's important to you, ask for it!

    In one trial that I judged, my co-judge and I wrote something to the effect of "The judge believe that the shoulders of both mounds are on line". That was placed in the holding blind. A handler who had a very stylish dog elected to make no effort to hit either shoulder. I heard people in the gallery say "Didn't he read the note in the holding blind?" I like that. I like that the contestants know what is important to me.

    3. As I mentioned earlier, the diagram only shows the "ideal" line to the blind, it does not replace judging. A dog may hit all the markers, but if it is stopped 20 times in route, exhibits poor style, and/or had poor marks, it is gone - because judging in a FT is both relative and cumulative. I realize that there will be complaining from the gallery because dogs that hit all the markers are dropped, and those that do not are carried. But, as Greg mentioned, a lot goes into judging a dog that you never truly appreciate until you sit in the chair.

    I have yet to judge the field trial where everyone approved of my work. I doubt it will ever happen. I do believe that over the course of a judging career, you establish your own book. My goal is to be known for having tough tests, generous callbacks, and consistent placements. Time will tell whether I am successful. Being popular is not important to me. But, I don't want to be known - as some judges are - for having mystery criteria.

    I think the diagram eliminates mystery.

    4. I think that the diagram can make the blind harder. Any experienced judge has a story about an Open where the pros decided to make their own criteria for the blind. When I put a diagram out - I am telling you what I want. If a handler makes no effort to abide by my diagram, I can only infer that he/she is incapable of controlling the dog as requested, or the dog is incapable of carrying the necessary casts. A blind is a test of control and if a handler makes no effort to demonstrate the control requested - there will be consequences. Sometimes this means a dog is dropped, sometimes it means that a dog's scores are diminished. But, like Bill, I make note when handlers make no effort to run my blind - as illustrated.

    Because I believe that the line to the blind is not always obvious, when I give you my diagram - it is obvious. There is no excuse for the handler not to attempt to run my blind.

    5. I don't think it requires too much work to draw the diagram. I am going to put the critical markers on my master diagram anyway. I simply draw over my master diagram and leave the copy in the holding blind.

    Ted
    Ted,
    We've not met, but I'd like to. I especially appreciate your references to "effort" as well the other merits of style and perseverance. I think your comments are spot on, both for FT's and HTs. There is no good reason to not insure that handlers understand what is expected.
    I recall watching a pair of HT judges repeatedly drop dogs who missed a piece of cover that, from the line, was right of the line to the blind. But to the judges, sitting comfortably off to one side, the cover appeared to be on line. I still wonder if they were surprised at the handlers who, once clued in to what was going on, stopped their dogs short of the cover, gave an angle back right to put phideaux in the cover, then corrected to put their dog back on the actual corridor and complete the blind.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post

    I believe so. Others disagree.



    I guess what I would say is that it is not - in the strictest sense - a "line." If it were, we would be requiring the dogs to navigate a path one inch wide and punishing them for a failure to do so. Rather, it is a "corridor." The contours of that "corridor" vary.

    For example
    - Paul says that you should stay 5 yards on either side of the imaginary line. See post 4. His corridor is shaped like this - "="
    - Gary tells you that his corridor is narrow at the beginning and wide at the end. See post 30. His corridor is shaped like this - "V"
    - I know FT judges who believe the corridor is narrow at the beginning and end, but wide in the middle. Their corridors are shaped like a football -"()"

    In a FT, the judges have "corridors" not "lines". Those "corridors" vary. That is why I like to use diagrams when I judge.




    For starters, in a FT, there is no standard. Work is judged relatively - that is, how did you do compared to the field. Work is also judged cumulatively - that is, how does your body of work in the FT stack up to what others have done. Moreover, "style" is an element that judges consider too. If you toe the line, but crawl along the line, maybe your lack of "style" results in a drop. So, yes, there are many factors.




    Yes, you run your dog and give it your best shot.
    I just recently had blinds explained to me in the "corridor" manner and it makes all the sense in the world to me.

    Great post!
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