RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

odd problem

7K views 35 replies 20 participants last post by  Bug 
#1 ·
so you may recall my no-go problem thread that was result of poor bird boy skills, bad thinking on my part to run a drill (dirt clod), and poor timing. this all occured on land. fast forward 2 months and im still getting a few no goes here and there. my course of action is "no" "sit" walk forward 10 steps "here" burn till he gets at my side then send. which he always takes off and usually gets in the AOF.

fast forward to last friday. got new grounds to train on. still always in the back of my mind he'll no go and i usually can tell before i send him. set up a long single (250 yards). ran it and nailed it and did not no go. added 2nd gunner at 175 and ran as double nailed i with no no go. called it a day.

next day met group at training ponds. usually train here once a month. ran 6-7 short singles >125 yards. no-goed every single one. called it a day with that group and then some field trial guys showed up and decided we'd work through the problem with some pros (pro in experience not pro as in paid). set up some cheating singles between 150-250. went through all 3 marks no-goed them all but after the here burn he'd get in the AOF. they suggested maybe if i'd had this problem for 2 months maybe i needed to try something different. so they suggested when i come back up send him while they are in the air at the peak to not give him chance to bug or no go. it may create some bad habits but tackle the greater of the 2 evils first. it worked on first one but he didnt get any where near AOf and had to be handled.

after all the setups they got young dogs out to work on short (50-75 yards) cheating singles. most of them were just cutting corner type marks or running water. i worked him on it just to build confidence. did 6 flawlessly. the final one 75 yards he no goed

fast forward to today. set up a cold double on same field from last week 320 and 175. small hunts on both but didnt get any no goes and called it a day. lots of praise given and couple hup-hups

my question. do you think no goes are related to water? could he be tired from the day before or know that the swimming will make him tired? doesnt like to perform in public? could it be related to his dead tail we got around 2.5 months ago?

2 months ago the burn on a no go was a 3, saturday we made it to a 5. its not a factor of not seeing mark because the wingers i use when i train alone have a primer on them and only half the time does it go off. and he still nails the marks. saturday we were using thunders and bumper boys. he doenst no go blinds. almost any time he cheats i dont resort to nicks i just handle if its really bad. luckily he's a pretty water honest dog. last week were only real field trial marks. everything up to this point has been confidence building marks >125 yards
 
See less See more
#5 ·
Yes. The ones we run in the field are 2" flashers at 300 yards that throw flat more than up. And as I said primer rarely goes off. The thunders are loud and slow and the bumper boys are loud and have more hang time. Also like I said he would bug and I'd send then here burn and he'd get we'll within AOF. Even had a buddy watch him as marks go off and his remarks were "he saw that and bugged. Kick him off be ready for no go"
 
#7 ·
Is this bugging occurring when the bird is in the air? Is this a head swinging thing or a defiance issue in looking at the marks fall? I am still not convinced that he is seeing the mark. A 2" with a flat throw at 300 is hard to see. I think that he is seeing part of the fall but not all of it and he is not confident and is anticipating correction. Without being there to witness first hand, the first thing that I would do given the situation is to call a no bird the next time you anticipate the no-go and have the mark re-thrown for him and see what happens. Is this the dog that is 17 months?
 
#8 ·
correct he is 17 months. he is seeing the flat 2" from wingers which is why he is nailing those marks in the field. the bumper boy and thunder on water are what i got no goes on. and most of those landed on water or bank with a splash. the bugging is happening after the marks land. he looks away (and not towards other station)

the second no go on saturday at pond was a 100 yard mark and i looked down and saw what i thought was a no bird and not a bug. so i took him off the line and honored so he could see marks being ran he gave a little whimper when the other do was sent. walked back up. he did it again and thats when buddy (whom i trust and has 2 MH dogs) said "that was a bug..."

i too though considered he didnt mark them but why would he get to AOF and give a tight hunt after a correction.

Gundawg: you are trying to encourage forward movement with a no-go so you step forward
 
#12 ·
heres another question thats stuck with me. lets say couple months down the road we have it "fixed" and enter a derby. the thought will always be in my mind he could still no go. what is solution at the line of a trial? my thougts are once the collar comes off he is less likely to no go anyway but if he did seems like walking off the line would be exactly what he wanted. obviously at this point you are out of the running but how do you spin it into a positive
 
#13 · (Edited)
I think that you'll have a whole new set of issues once you start running tests. Once he figures it out you'll go from "I hope he goes" to "I hope he doesn't go 'till I send him"

You did say one thing that makes me believe that you believe in your heart this is a pressure thing and that is that you think he will do better without the collar. Do it in training and see if it fixes your issue. You have other means of correction available to you. Just see. If that is the case, well, that's a whole other conversation.
 
#14 ·
Live flapping pigeons.
 
#15 ·
If he had cold tail before this all started I would be very suspicious. I have a guy that I learned the hard way about cold tail. Cold tail on rare occasions can travel up to their pelvis and cause pain and very real problems, it's kind of like having lower back problems. I would get him to a chiro and have him checked out.
deb
 
#16 ·
I could be way off, but......
sounds like when he does it right, like the single and the double or the cold double you are alone or with one person.
and when the no-goes happen it is with a group. Again I could have readed it wrong.
I think when you are alone you are at ease. And that makes your dog at ease. When with a group you start to worry about the no-go. You start to worry about what to do. Or even how you will be looked on by others. "Stage Fright"
And that makes your dog worry and hunker, what you see when you can tell he is not going to go. He is feeding off of your emotions. He is thinking "here we go, I do not know what will happen but I know that guy is feeling bad about it and I am going to get corrected"!!!!
again, I could be way off. but reading what I am reading I ask, are the no goes in groups and the perfect runs alone or with say one trusted friend?????
 
#17 · (Edited)
fast forward to last friday. got new grounds to train on. still always in the back of my mind he'll no go and i usually can tell before i send him. set up a long single (250 yards). ran it and nailed it and did not no go. added 2nd gunner at 175 and ran as double nailed i with no no go. called it a day.

next day met group at training ponds. usually train here once a month. ran 6-7 short singles >125 yards. no-goed every single one. called it a day with that group and then some field trial guys showed up and decided we'd work through the problem with some pros (pro in experience not pro as in paid). set up some cheating singles between 150-250. went through all 3 marks no-goed them all but after the here burn he'd get in the AOF. they suggested maybe if i'd had this problem for 2 months maybe i needed to try something different. so they suggested when i come back up send him while they are in the air at the peak to not give him chance to bug or no go. it may create some bad habits but tackle the greater of the 2 evils first. it worked on first one but he didnt get any where near AOf and had to be handled.

after all the setups they got young dogs out to work on short (50-75 yards) cheating singles. most of them were just cutting corner type marks or running water. i worked him on it just to build confidence. did 6 flawlessly. the final one 75 yards he no goed

fast forward to today. set up a cold double on same field from last week 320 and 175. small hunts on both but didnt get any no goes and called it a day. lots of praise given and couple hup-hups

2 months ago the burn on a no go was a 3, saturday we made it to a 5. its not a factor of not seeing mark because the wingers i use when i train alone have a primer on them and only half the time does it go off. and he still nails the marks. saturday we were using thunders and bumper boys. he doenst no go blinds. almost any time he cheats i dont resort to nicks i just handle if its really bad. luckily he's a pretty water honest dog. last week were only real field trial marks. everything up to this point has been confidence building marks >125 yards

From the outside looking in, I don't see much reason for your dog to enjoy running marks. There seems to be an imbalance towards big setup and/or cheaty marks as opposed to confidence/attitude building marks.

6-7 singles around 125 yards (that I assume you burned for every no go) is a lot of pressure on a dog, when marking is supposed to be what they really love. Then following it up with (three) 150-250 yard cheating singles is even more pressure. Three 150-250 yard cheating singles are pretty darn big stuff for a 17 month old. Then you re-run them again....... And then.....7 more cheating singles..... When a young dog even looks at a cheaty situation, it will more than likely "perceive" pressure.

I certainly don't claim to know squat about training a FT dog (taking a stab at my first derby dog as well), BUT I am somewhat of the philosophy that you dont' train a derby dog (or any dog for that matter) by only running big setups. You build the components, with an ever mindful eye on attitude, then when the dog needs to run the big stuff he has the confidence and is fundamentally sound to execute the task (in theory anyway:D)

I'm not implying to not train the dog :D , but it sounds like you may be overtraining, or at least out of balance with your training. You didn't even mention how much yard/blind work you're doing. It all adds up.....especially in the heat of summer.

Good Luck!
 
#18 ·
tony: so lets say next time i train i take the collar off. and he still no goes. what is the correction? same as with a collar minus the nick? (no sit here "moose")

longgun: he got cold tail like 2.5 months ago. we rested for a week then trained the next and that week was the drill we ran/BB flub up that resulted in a no-go issue. my only thought was that maybe he was associating water with his tail and that was why he would no go there and not the field. i dont think it had any lasting health issues but i could be wrong


ken: yes the perfect marks were when i was alone. the no-goes were when we trained with my training partner and later when we trained in a group of 4. there could be some nervousness on my part but when we were with just my partner i walked to the line thinking "well these are just basic water marks no problem" and that's when the no-goes started. every mark after that i treated it as a new ball game but of course the thought still lingers "please dont no go. please dont no go."

mountain: the 2 months prior to this (after initial no-go phase) were when we simplified. to the point that it was just open field singles at >125 yards in a mowed field. did that consistently for 2 months before we stepped it back up gradually. i thought we had it beat but then this ordeal on saturday has reared its head.
 
#19 ·
To me there is more to the story than what is being said. I perceive to much collar pressure. Don;t take the collar off but don't use it. Have someone out there in the field to help the dog or encourage him out when he no goes b/c obviously you have a serious problem and it is the same on you had before - NO Goes. I would also suggest you try to train with very experienced help if you can, lay off the collar and train wisely by not overdoing the marking. By that I mean if he goes really good on one mark don't throw another and another! Quit while you are ahead. Keep him sweet. May be a fun bumper away from the training area. He is not that old yet and has already formed a serious problem!!Lots of years and lots of time to correct! JMHO
 
#22 ·
For one stop running so many damn marks in one day. Next ease up on the distances. Go train on some in cheaty water marks alone and see what the result is. It sounds like everything is a setup and not enough go get ums. start with shorter water marks and eliminate the cheat for a bit.
 
#23 ·
Are your no-goes on land, water or both? Have you done any force to a pile on land or in the water? If so I would suggest sending him on back!! I might also do a little pile work prior to running marks to get him ready to be sent on BACK. I would also take all factors out of the marks. Marks should be nothing but run pick something up until you are comfortable that the no-go issue is gone. Complicating the marks will complicate the no-goes..
 
#24 ·
I ponder over this over night, Here my 2 cents. I think that she is wanting to cheat and when you don't let her she no-goes. I would put her in some more open water, vary few factors ( Entry to be vary easy ) for a few days. Make it light one or two retrieves and maybe twice. If everything goes good. I would go back and start my cheating portion of my training, from the beginning. Or wait for while first and then do them. She is still vary young.

Keith
 
#30 ·
I ponder over this over night, Here my 2 cents. I think that she is wanting to cheat and when you don't let her she no-goes. I would put her in some more open water, vary few factors ( Entry to be vary easy ) for a few days. Make it light one or two retrieves and maybe twice. If everything goes good. I would go back and start my cheating portion of my training, from the beginning. Or wait for while first and then do them. She is still vary young.

Keith
i think this is probably what i'm leaning towards as the answer. which is weird because i dont use the collar for a cheat. i usually use attrition.

when we went over to work young dogs and he did really well it was a big body of water and we were just cutting corners. no re-entries, or any majorly technical aspects.
 
#25 ·
To me it sounds a lot like it is a pressure issue, probably created by the misuse and overuse of the E-collar. If you read he is going to no-go, don't send him. Rethrow the bird and try to improve his attitude. Don't send the dog when you feel failure is going to occur.

I truly don't feel a collar correction on a no-go on marks is the solution. Forcing to a pile is training for blinds. Marks should not need force to make the dog go. Marks only need drive and "want to" to make the dog go. It sounds to me, and I have not seen the dog, that the force/pressure used in marks has/is taking that "want to" out of the dog and replacing it with fear. This will likely be an issue that will continue to pop up throughout the dogs career. Do everything to keep all marking sessions positive and successful for this dog forever. That doesn't mean not to introduce concepts, it just means don't overwhelm the dog with too much in marking setups. Make sure he understands what he is to do and let him do it.
 
#27 ·
I agree with others that you are probably digging a hole with all of this pressure, emphasis on cheating marks, and the sheer number of marks in a day.

There's one additional factor no one has mentioned so far. Your dog does better with wingers than with launchers. Could she be having a problem with echo? Her reaction as you describe it fits with that of a dog that is confused by an echo.

I can easily imagine that she has been confused by an echo in the past, and may associate that confusion with lots of collar pressure with either the launchers, the training group, or the location where you all get together.

I wish you success finding a way out of this repetitive pattern.

Amy Dahl
 
#28 ·
Launchers are hard to see at a distance. Quit throwing marks from them unless the marks are ridiculously short and easy to get to. Wingers at 300 yards are hard to see unless you have excellent bands and there's a ton of ribbon on the bird. Throw more (or only) birds, especially flyers or clipped wing pigeons. The last things you should be doing with a dog that no-goes are cheaty marks or multiples.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Does the dog ever no-go on you in a test? Maybe you got a Rodman dog (doesn't like to train, but likes to play the game ;)). I got a girl does the same thing in training to me; I know she's gonna no-go, it's just going to happen and I just got to deal with-it. I either step her offline (wait to run her), hoping she'll stop her game (doesn't happen often but we can hope ;)). Or No-nonsense, bump her forward (I don't use the sit, (as soon as I see the change) I just walk-off-heel-(nick), pay-attention mark), seems if you do the sit they anticipate the nick,(it becomes a custom just what they do before they run) and you end-up playing their game. Sometimes I'll also do a collar-ear shake, No pay-attention. Different forms of correction/pressure. We mix it up, trying to break the custom.

I've come to the conclusion, it's just something with her and me, she doesn't pull this crap with others. I think because the others, took care of it right away, (it never became a custom). But her and I have history, a history where she knows she can play with me, so I got to be tough (but fair)every-time. Hope that perhaps one day it'll connect that I no longer play her game, and she'll stop playing it (hasn't happened yet but I'm getting more consistent). Plus side she's never ever done it to me in a test, she loves tests. She also doesn't do it to me if we train alone. But get her in a training group (club days especially), bingo back into the custom. The more people the worst she is, she loves to play to a crowd. Thus I've become very particular in where I train her, I train with a group that knows the dog, and how she trains, so we no longer get audience interference "Poor dog/too much pressure, bad-mean trainer" (Try as I might even when I absolutely know I'm being fair the audience affects me, the dog can read it and we back slide, so no-more of that).

Just keeping telling your-self; I don't need to look good, I don't need to win training day,, I just need to train (that means the dog gives effort and does as he's told), ;) If I can maintain the No-nonsense approach we get a lot of work done in every training session. Sure we look terrible, but we're getting things done. Negative sometimes it's very tiring for the trainer, however When Dennis Rodman shows up on test day, it's worth it ;).

Favorite quote from a Club training day in all seriousness stated to me after running my MHR, HRCH, MH " When did you get a Junior Dog?" :evil:

If you ever figure-out the secret on how to get a Rodman to love training, please let me know ;)
 
#33 ·
I'd only throw a few marks with live birds a day. Do a couple pattern blinds on the next day. Maybe do something fun like go to the beach on the third day with the dog. Kinda sounds like your routine has become really tedious for the dog and heal burning all the time just adds to the misery.
 
#34 ·
I don't throw out training advice since I am not qualified but I will throw out a couple of thoughts for you to chew on.

First, Malcolm Sykes, an excellent (ex) young dog trainer told me when we got our puppy that the number one mistake he sees people make with young dogs is to stretch them out too far too soon. He made me promise not to do that and to keep things black and white with limited factors (distance increases the factors the dog must navigate) and just let the dog mark.

Second, I have a older dog with bad line manners. He seems to think he can mark birds looking over his shoulder and such like his dad Cosmo but he can't. We have tried lots of things and we have made it better, but not good enough. This summer all we have been doing with him are fairly short marks but he doesn't get sent until his butt is on the mat. After we moved from singles, the next bird is not thrown until the butt is on the mat. No stick, no collar--nothing. I just stand there and don't say a word. I could do four short marks like this and he would be way more gassed than after a big open series. Totally exhausted. Even though I don't do a thing, the guy is under a lot of pressure and it wears him out. As folks have said, pressure isn't just the collar.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top