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Thread: odd problem

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marshall View Post
    He may just be running out to the gunner and establishing a hunt after the correction. It seems like when he is not confident that he saw it that he is using avoidance because he is anticipating the correction. If he's been FTP then he knows that he has to go so he is running to the gun and starting hunting. I would think differently if you said that he was pinning the mark after the no-go. I believe that the sequence you have been using has gotten you into trouble. I would consider backing up and doing nothing but hand thrown marks at much shorter distances. I would do whatever it takes to get the dogs confidence up and would avoid any correction on marks including handling or collar corrections. If the dog no-goes, have the gunner "hup, hup" him and get him moving. Grab his collar and physically move him forward, whatever you have to do. The main thing is that what you are doing isn't working. His confidence is low and he is anticipating correction. Simplify ad nauseam until he is going every time even if you have to have the gunner feed them to him or seed the area. Whatever it takes.

    yea those are the methods we used when we were "building confidence" for the first 2 months after the inital no goes. i think one of the no goes he did pin it but you may be right about running to the gun and hunting. the pinning of two doubles in the field has me second thinking it though. those were tough setups and i visually saw him aknowledge each mark (launch stance ears perked etc) if he were to no go id figured it 'd be a long, small, quiet, t shirt stick man bumper toss rather than a loud, short, slow, full size stick man thrown bumper

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  2. #12
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    heres another question thats stuck with me. lets say couple months down the road we have it "fixed" and enter a derby. the thought will always be in my mind he could still no go. what is solution at the line of a trial? my thougts are once the collar comes off he is less likely to no go anyway but if he did seems like walking off the line would be exactly what he wanted. obviously at this point you are out of the running but how do you spin it into a positive

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    I think that you'll have a whole new set of issues once you start running tests. Once he figures it out you'll go from "I hope he goes" to "I hope he doesn't go 'till I send him"

    You did say one thing that makes me believe that you believe in your heart this is a pressure thing and that is that you think he will do better without the collar. Do it in training and see if it fixes your issue. You have other means of correction available to you. Just see. If that is the case, well, that's a whole other conversation.
    Last edited by Tony Marshall; 08-29-2013 at 07:10 AM.

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    If he had cold tail before this all started I would be very suspicious. I have a guy that I learned the hard way about cold tail. Cold tail on rare occasions can travel up to their pelvis and cause pain and very real problems, it's kind of like having lower back problems. I would get him to a chiro and have him checked out.
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    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    I could be way off, but......
    sounds like when he does it right, like the single and the double or the cold double you are alone or with one person.
    and when the no-goes happen it is with a group. Again I could have readed it wrong.
    I think when you are alone you are at ease. And that makes your dog at ease. When with a group you start to worry about the no-go. You start to worry about what to do. Or even how you will be looked on by others. "Stage Fright"
    And that makes your dog worry and hunker, what you see when you can tell he is not going to go. He is feeding off of your emotions. He is thinking "here we go, I do not know what will happen but I know that guy is feeling bad about it and I am going to get corrected"!!!!
    again, I could be way off. but reading what I am reading I ask, are the no goes in groups and the perfect runs alone or with say one trusted friend?????
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    fast forward to last friday. got new grounds to train on. still always in the back of my mind he'll no go and i usually can tell before i send him. set up a long single (250 yards). ran it and nailed it and did not no go. added 2nd gunner at 175 and ran as double nailed i with no no go. called it a day.

    next day met group at training ponds. usually train here once a month. ran 6-7 short singles >125 yards. no-goed every single one. called it a day with that group and then some field trial guys showed up and decided we'd work through the problem with some pros (pro in experience not pro as in paid). set up some cheating singles between 150-250. went through all 3 marks no-goed them all but after the here burn he'd get in the AOF. they suggested maybe if i'd had this problem for 2 months maybe i needed to try something different. so they suggested when i come back up send him while they are in the air at the peak to not give him chance to bug or no go. it may create some bad habits but tackle the greater of the 2 evils first. it worked on first one but he didnt get any where near AOf and had to be handled.

    after all the setups they got young dogs out to work on short (50-75 yards) cheating singles. most of them were just cutting corner type marks or running water. i worked him on it just to build confidence. did 6 flawlessly. the final one 75 yards he no goed

    fast forward to today. set up a cold double on same field from last week 320 and 175. small hunts on both but didnt get any no goes and called it a day. lots of praise given and couple hup-hups

    2 months ago the burn on a no go was a 3, saturday we made it to a 5. its not a factor of not seeing mark because the wingers i use when i train alone have a primer on them and only half the time does it go off. and he still nails the marks. saturday we were using thunders and bumper boys. he doenst no go blinds. almost any time he cheats i dont resort to nicks i just handle if its really bad. luckily he's a pretty water honest dog. last week were only real field trial marks. everything up to this point has been confidence building marks >125 yards

    From the outside looking in, I don't see much reason for your dog to enjoy running marks. There seems to be an imbalance towards big setup and/or cheaty marks as opposed to confidence/attitude building marks.

    6-7 singles around 125 yards (that I assume you burned for every no go) is a lot of pressure on a dog, when marking is supposed to be what they really love. Then following it up with (three) 150-250 yard cheating singles is even more pressure. Three 150-250 yard cheating singles are pretty darn big stuff for a 17 month old. Then you re-run them again....... And then.....7 more cheating singles..... When a young dog even looks at a cheaty situation, it will more than likely "perceive" pressure.

    I certainly don't claim to know squat about training a FT dog (taking a stab at my first derby dog as well), BUT I am somewhat of the philosophy that you dont' train a derby dog (or any dog for that matter) by only running big setups. You build the components, with an ever mindful eye on attitude, then when the dog needs to run the big stuff he has the confidence and is fundamentally sound to execute the task (in theory anyway)

    I'm not implying to not train the dog , but it sounds like you may be overtraining, or at least out of balance with your training. You didn't even mention how much yard/blind work you're doing. It all adds up.....especially in the heat of summer.

    Good Luck!
    Last edited by Mountain Duck; 08-29-2013 at 09:40 AM.
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    tony: so lets say next time i train i take the collar off. and he still no goes. what is the correction? same as with a collar minus the nick? (no sit here "moose")

    longgun: he got cold tail like 2.5 months ago. we rested for a week then trained the next and that week was the drill we ran/BB flub up that resulted in a no-go issue. my only thought was that maybe he was associating water with his tail and that was why he would no go there and not the field. i dont think it had any lasting health issues but i could be wrong


    ken: yes the perfect marks were when i was alone. the no-goes were when we trained with my training partner and later when we trained in a group of 4. there could be some nervousness on my part but when we were with just my partner i walked to the line thinking "well these are just basic water marks no problem" and that's when the no-goes started. every mark after that i treated it as a new ball game but of course the thought still lingers "please dont no go. please dont no go."

    mountain: the 2 months prior to this (after initial no-go phase) were when we simplified. to the point that it was just open field singles at >125 yards in a mowed field. did that consistently for 2 months before we stepped it back up gradually. i thought we had it beat but then this ordeal on saturday has reared its head.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    tony: so lets say next time i train i take the collar off. and he still no goes. what is the correction? same as with a collar minus the nick? (no sit here "moose")

    longgun: he got cold tail like 2.5 months ago. we rested for a week then trained the next and that week was the drill we ran/BB flub up that resulted in a no-go issue. my only thought was that maybe he was associating water with his tail and that was why he would no go there and not the field. i dont think it had any lasting health issues but i could be wrong


    ken: yes the perfect marks were when i was alone. the no-goes were when we trained with my training partner and later when we trained in a group of 4. there could be some nervousness on my part but when we were with just my partner i walked to the line thinking "well these are just basic water marks no problem" and that's when the no-goes started. every mark after that i treated it as a new ball game but of course the thought still lingers "please dont no go. please dont no go."

    mountain: the 2 months prior to this (after initial no-go phase) were when we simplified. to the point that it was just open field singles at >125 yards in a mowed field. did that consistently for 2 months before we stepped it back up gradually. i thought we had it beat but then this ordeal on saturday has reared its head.
    To me there is more to the story than what is being said. I perceive to much collar pressure. Don;t take the collar off but don't use it. Have someone out there in the field to help the dog or encourage him out when he no goes b/c obviously you have a serious problem and it is the same on you had before - NO Goes. I would also suggest you try to train with very experienced help if you can, lay off the collar and train wisely by not overdoing the marking. By that I mean if he goes really good on one mark don't throw another and another! Quit while you are ahead. Keep him sweet. May be a fun bumper away from the training area. He is not that old yet and has already formed a serious problem!!Lots of years and lots of time to correct! JMHO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    To me there is more to the story than what is being said. I perceive to much collar pressure. Don;t take the collar off but don't use it. Have someone out there in the field to help the dog or encourage him out when he no goes b/c obviously you have a serious problem and it is the same on you had before - NO Goes. I would also suggest you try to train with very experienced help if you can, lay off the collar and train wisely by not overdoing the marking. By that I mean if he goes really good on one mark don't throw another and another! Quit while you are ahead. Keep him sweet. May be a fun bumper away from the training area. He is not that old yet and has already formed a serious problem!!Lots of years and lots of time to correct! JMHO
    i hear what you are saying. yesterday after he nailed the setup i called it good and instead of kenneling just let him walk out there with me to pack it up. tossing a few fun bumpers here and there.

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