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Thread: Water blind trouble

  1. #21
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    He doesn't seek land on water marks and exits where I'm standing.

    I think I follow why you're asking about water force. He enters the water great, but will not re-enter the water with an over or back no matter how much pressure. He knows the casts, but he doesn't care about the pressure. So, that being said I'm not really sure how its going to help when I've been trying to force him in the water and he's not responding. At this point I'm afraid to use much pressure going forward.

    I think I need to back up. And, I have someone helping but we haven't been able to get together for a few days. In the meantime, I think I'm going to work on land blinds.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    Evan

    As a solution for him, I am not sure why he should be focusing on force. I know that your background has you focusing on force.
    I appreciate your point Dennis, but we're headed in different directions with this, which is why I asked him what I did. Not everyone has the same objectives when they force, and especially when water forcing. I'm sure you've seen it done multiple ways, as have I. To me, it's all about objectives, and mine is not merely to force or compel the dog. By the time I water force I will already have compulsion well polished.

    My objectives for water forcing are different from some trainers. I'm more interested in enhancing a dog's desire to be in water because it becomes a welcome place to be during the process I use. A statement I usually make at seminars is "A well water forced dog tends to yield water-oriented responses to corrections made around water." I already know by this time that if I send a dog they will go. My process of water force clears up the fact that it is water that helps pressure go away. That, I believe, was a point of the way D.L. did it. That is the aspect I liked most. I'm not suggesting that getting the OP's dog to take a swim-by as given that he first turn to force to attain compliance. I haven't said that at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    But, to me, it seems that he shouldn't be using force when he is getting the responses he describes when he does use force! He has already said it doesn't matter how much force he uses, the dog doesn't get back in the water.
    And that's what prompted me to ask about whether or not he's water forced. Not just "force" in general. But water force. If he water forced just prior to swim-by, and did it in a manner similar to what I do, getting in the water when corrected around it would be the dog's first instinct. I still don't know that about him yet because we haven't taken the discussion that far yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    There just too much of this "Force is a first solution to solve problems" IMO.
    I agree. That is a point I make frequently. Teach first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    personally no. But stick with what you know

    /Paul
    What I know is that my comments were directed toward Pedigo. I'm curious to know what he understands as goals for water force and how it should affect his dog's responses on swim-by.

    Evan
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Evan, my saying for this is "see the water be the water." The concept of a dog seeking water and viewing water as a way to correctly manage pressure is a pretty well known idea. However there appears to some large gaps on training that should be addressed before turning to force on water. In this I believe I am in alignment with Randy and Dennis.

    /Paul
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  4. #24
    Senior Member truthseeker's Avatar
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    I am also with Paul, Randy and Dennis, in the fact that there is not one or two, but more steps missing in the dogs flow chart. It is pretty obvious that if the dog is taking caller pressure and not responding there is something missing and it's not more pressure. I do not want to say more then that.

    Keith

    I don't want to sound rude, but I don't think that this can be addressed over the internet.
    Last edited by truthseeker; 09-04-2013 at 01:28 AM. Reason: More

  5. #25
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedigo View Post
    He doesn't seek land on water marks and exits where I'm standing.

    I think I follow why you're asking about water force. He enters the water great, but will not re-enter the water with an over or back no matter how much pressure. He knows the casts, but he doesn't care about the pressure. So, that being said I'm not really sure how its going to help when I've been trying to force him in the water and he's not responding. At this point I'm afraid to use much pressure going forward.

    I think I need to back up. And, I have someone helping but we haven't been able to get together for a few days. In the meantime, I think I'm going to work on land blinds.
    I like the idea of backing up, but how far? Do you think you've covered all the basics thoroughly? Only you can discern that, but it's very important that you take stock. It sounds like you may have moved along too fast, which often happens.

    May I suggest that as you go back and shore up your basics, and finish them that you spend more time marking for now, and then go to land blinds? Good luck.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

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