The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 41

Thread: "Aversives": A little something for the newer trainer.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    5,170

    Default "Aversives": A little something for the newer trainer.

    In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. That is mostly true in dog training, but a significant exception is forcing, during which a behavior is made more likely to reoccur through the application of an aversive stimulus. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (like a 2x4!). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive. Aversive tools apply ‘unpleasant stimuli’.

    The above description includes the word ‘punishment’. But that isn't specifically accurate in all dog training applications. I’m not going to launch into an Operant Conditioning discussion (yet). But what we’re really talking about here are aversive tools. Ear pinch, heeling sticks, e-collars, et al. They may punish, correct, or merely compel. But they do so by being used as implements that apply unpleasant stimuli (pressure/force).

    I thought this might be a worthy discussion, what with hunting season coming up and all! I don't know about you, but I'm sharpening my dog up for hunting!

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bartona500's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Tupelo, Mississippi
    Posts
    366

    Default

    Evan,

    What balance do you seek between aversis and rewards in training?
    -Barton Ramsey

  3. #3
    Senior Member Lucky Number Seven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Saukville, WI
    Posts
    638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    That is mostly true in dog training, but a significant exception is forcing, during which a behavior is made more likely to reoccur through the application of an aversive stimulus.
    Let's say for instance a dog pops on a blind, this statement tends me to believe that if you use force (collar stimuli) to drive the dog out of the pop that the popping is likely to occur again because you used aversive stimulus?

    Or is the timing of the collar burn critical in that if you apply the burn after the dog has turned "back" towards the dead bird that the aversive stimulus would tend to have the dog repeat the turn and positive advancement to the blind in a future setup?

  4. #4
    Junior Member GoldenR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Schaumburg
    Posts
    15

    Default

    You are reinforcing the dog on a "Back" not necessarily punishing the pop. The idea would be that the back would be more likely to occur in the future. While the pop will be less likely.
    Last edited by GoldenR; 09-06-2013 at 11:10 AM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Victoria, British Coliumbia
    Posts
    385

    Default

    Aversive "training" or "conditioning" has both benefits and draw backs with the potential for an unintentional outcome or side effect. Positive reinforcement may take more time (repetition) and be less dramatic in results though you are less likely to see a down side to the positive reinforcement especially if it is randomized. From your treat training to teach a new behavior you are using positive reinforcement.

    Each dog is different and regrettably too many of us have all our dogs fitting into our rigid program and time line. Please understand that the success rate of the good professionals and amateurs is that are flexible with a clear understanding of getting the basics in the dog before advancing onto the next step. Many clients who are paying the monthly training bills to the pro and many amateurs who trains their own dogs share a common short coming, they are impatient.

    Yes, the aversive training is effective and as the original post suggested the level is on a continuum and needs to be so depending on the dog and the handlers understanding of the what dog has been taught and knows. What must always be for most in the trainers mind is what is the downside of the stimulus correction beyond the immediate aberrant behavior being worked on or trained out of the dog. So as Jerry Patopea would say think two steps ahead of your dog.

    The aversive training if done judiciously will see have the dog respectful of you and working as a team player.
    Last edited by Ironwood; 09-06-2013 at 11:41 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    5,170

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartona500 View Post
    Evan,

    What balance do you seek between aversis and rewards in training?
    Good questions so far. The balance we seek should be determined by a couple important measurements. First, with the understanding that we use pressure (and therefore aversives) to change behavior. But we need to keep in mind that pressure isn't the first response to misbehavior. But even after we apply pressure to change a behavior we need to be consistent about praise/reward when the dog complies. Read your dog in the moment for his attitude and how he demonstrates an understanding of what you have required of him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Number Seven View Post
    Let's say for instance a dog pops on a blind, this statement tends me to believe that if you use force (collar stimuli) to drive the dog out of the pop that the popping is likely to occur again because you used aversive stimulus?
    Thanks for asking. This is the kind of question I was hoping to bring out. Here's why that idea isn't specifically so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. That is mostly true in dog training, but a significant exception is forcing, during which a behavior is made more likely to reoccur through the application of an aversive stimulus.
    So, when you de-pop ("Back"/nick - "Back") you are reducing the likelihood of future pops by making going, and continuing to go, more likely through forcing. It's not one dimensional. Again, by forcing the to go you achieve two goals together; to make it less likely that he will pop again because you have enforced the "Go" standard. So, what you've made more likely to happen in the future is that he will go, and not pop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartona500 View Post
    Or is the timing of the collar burn critical in that if you apply the burn after the dog has turned "back" towards the dead bird that the aversive stimulus would tend to have the dog repeat the turn and positive advancement to the blind in a future setup?
    Another good question. If you create that perception in your dog with this correction you have to strongly consider that your conditioning process was incorrect or incomplete. This is why I CC to specific commands in drills that isolate each function.

    You're certainly right that timing is important, so you want to correct for popping as closely as you can to the occurrence. If I see his nose come past his ear as he turns to pop, I will try to correct in the midst of the pop. What I won't do is blow a 'sit' whistle and condone the pop - thinking he'll understand that he's been corrected for it. You will just have enforced 'sit', not 'go'. Am I making this clear?

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  7. #7
    Senior Member Lucky Number Seven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Saukville, WI
    Posts
    638

    Default

    Your response is what I thought you meant by the correct meaning of your aversive stimulus statement but I just wanted to make sure that I understood it in the context of forcing on back, thus enforcing the "go" standard. Great topic!

  8. #8
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    5,170

    Default

    Thanks Chad. Like any pursuit, retriever training has its own jargon. Sometimes a newer trainer may assume to understand commonly used terms, but they really don't...at least not yet. More and more, "aversive" shows up in training conversations, and it's good to have a handle on it so you can get more out of the discussion.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  9. #9
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    6,727

    Default

    I just love hypothetical dog training, kinda like fantasy football to me
    Last edited by EdA; 09-07-2013 at 01:55 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    5,170

    Default

    Thanks for the insight.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •