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Thread: "Aversives": A little something for the newer trainer.

  1. #21
    Senior Member Brad's Avatar
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    I have realized aways back I was asking to much of what he was cappable of.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Brad,

    You're ahead of many folks who sadly never seem to take that into consideration. It's all on the dog far too often. You'll be fine.

    Evan
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  3. #23
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Knowledge is good but worthless without wisdom.

    /Paul
    True statement.

    And I believe that wisdom can be acquired only with time and experience; it cannot be acquired from others.

    Knowledge, on the other hand, CAN be acquired from others in many forms.

    So does this mean that since we cannot impart WISDOM on others that we should not try to impart KNOWLEDGE? Seems like this would make most all training advice given here, or anywhere else, worthless.

    JS
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  4. #24
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    I just live hypothetical dog training, kinda like fantasy football to me
    Doc, do you live it? Or Love it?
    Bill Davis

  5. #25
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    Doc, do you live it? Or Love it?
    Damn IPhone keyboard, love it of course tongue in cheek

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    I just love hypothetical dog training, kinda like fantasy football to me
    I'm not into fantasy football at all but I do believe there can be a lot of knowledge gained by discussing hypothetical problem ... Most will have already ( problems) been solved by others over the years...The newer you are to the game the greater potential for the increase in knowledge ...As stated ,wisdom can't be taught or imparted to others but first comes the knowledge and through application comes wisdom....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  7. #27
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironwood View Post
    Aversive "training" or "conditioning" has both benefits and draw backs with the potential for an unintentional outcome or side effect. Positive reinforcement may take more time (repetition) and be less dramatic in results though you are less likely to see a down side to the positive reinforcement especially if it is randomized. From your treat training to teach a new behavior you are using positive reinforcement.

    Each dog is different and regrettably too many of us have all our dogs fitting into our rigid program and time line. Please understand that the success rate of the good professionals and amateurs is that are flexible with a clear understanding of getting the basics in the dog before advancing onto the next step. Many clients who are paying the monthly training bills to the pro and many amateurs who trains their own dogs share a common short coming, they are impatient.

    Yes, the aversive training is effective and as the original post suggested the level is on a continuum and needs to be so depending on the dog and the handlers understanding of the what dog has been taught and knows. What must always be for most in the trainers mind is what is the downside of the stimulus correction beyond the immediate aberrant behavior being worked on or trained out of the dog. So as Jerry Patopea would say think two steps ahead of your dog.

    The aversive training if done judiciously will see have the dog respectful of you and working as a team player.
    I bolded the section of this post from Ironwood which I think is very important! I use the collar but have trouble understanding how a dog say on a channel mark knows he has done wrong b/c you burned him for getting on land instead of staying in the channel. Some would advocate using IP and some direct pressure if he does not keep the course. I have issues with either until the dog is taught and even then can someone explain how this teaching will work to help the dog understand to keep the course!

    This statement from Paul is something to consider as well.

    Knowledge is good but worthless without wisdom.

    /Paul
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    True statement.

    And I believe that wisdom can be acquired only with time and experience; it cannot be acquired from others.

    Knowledge, on the other hand, CAN be acquired from others in many forms.

    So does this mean that since we cannot impart WISDOM on others that we should not try to impart KNOWLEDGE? Seems like this would make most all training advice given here, or anywhere else, worthless.

    JS
    after awhile its like listening to porn on the radio. These hypothetical discussions just become so much noise. The best threads take a dog, handler, situation and discuss various methods for training. I didn't do well in philosophy either.

    /Paul
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  9. #29
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. That is mostly true in dog training, but a significant exception is forcing, during which a behavior is made more likely to reoccur through the application of an aversive stimulus. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (like a 2x4!). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive. Aversive tools apply ‘unpleasant stimuli’.

    The above description includes the word ‘punishment’. But that isn't specifically accurate in all dog training applications. I’m not going to launch into an Operant Conditioning discussion (yet). But what we’re really talking about here are aversive tools. Ear pinch, heeling sticks, e-collars, et al. They may punish, correct, or merely compel. But they do so by being used as implements that apply unpleasant stimuli (pressure/force).

    I thought this might be a worthy discussion, what with hunting season coming up and all! I don't know about you, but I'm sharpening my dog up for hunting!

    Evan
    It's a very worthy discussion Evan, especially when it isn't accurately described in the very first post.

    "Forcing" is far from the exception to the rule in terms of negative re-enforcement strategies used in retriever training. We use both punishment and negative re-enforcement every single time we train. Every single time. Even if we're using steak!

    Here's what I mean, starting with aversives. When a dog is standing and we command sit, followed by pinch collar pressure, we are punishing the previous behavior (standing) and re-enforcing the new behavior (sitting). If we command here, followed with the e-collar, we are punishing whatever else he was doing (sniffing dog poo) and re-enforcing here. On heel with a pinch collar or a stick we are punishing him being out of position and re-enforcing him being in position.

    This is actually true in positive re-enforcement training. If a dog is standing and we command sit, we withhold the reward, creating frustration (a form of punishment), until he sits, relieving the frustration (negative re-enforcement) and earning the reward (positive re-enforcement).

    I could go through all of the other examples as well but it isn't necessary. Hopefully people get the idea, supporting my assertion that we are ALWAYS discouraging a behavior and encouraging a behavior. Regardless of the re-enforcement strategy, for behavior to change we have to discourage the previous behavior and encourage the new (desired) one. Logic says so.

    The only question then becomes, how strong the aversive treatment happens to be. Even standing there withholding a treat the dog desperately wants is very frustrating and stressful for the dog. It is, in fact punishment. We're teasing him and no one likes to be teased. I have asked a +r trainer, "Did you like it when your brother ran around with your favorite toy saying "nanny nanny poo poo" when you wanted to play with it?" No, you didn't and you probably chased him, then ran to Mommy to try and get the toy. That may or may not have worked but eventually, you found a way to get that toy back, didn't you? Maybe you ignored him and he got bored with your lack of reaction. In the future then, you immediately ignored him and got your toy back more quickly. He's trained you to ignore him when he picks up a toy of yours now, hasn't he? He give a signal (picking up the toy) and you respond appropriately (ignoring him). This example is no different than a dog running through various behaviors trying to get a reward. You're teasing them, they're frustrated and trying to figure our how to relieve that frustration. This is an aversive experience for the dog, whether these trainers want to admit it or not.

    I have seen "positive only" trainers stand on a leash many times to keep a dog from moving away. They will tell you this isn't punishment, to which I have replied more than once, "OK then put the collar on and I'll tie you to a post". Same concept as the above, only a bit more aversive to the dog.

    We go from there all the way to using a heeling stick! It's all a matter of semantics but there is ALWAYS an aversive of some form used in training, period, end of story. The only question is what level of aversive treatment you're willing to inflict on the dog to get what you want.

    Bottom line, training is training. In order to "change" behavior one has to be discouraged and the other encouraged. You ALWAYS use an aversive to effect that change and some form of reward to re-enforce desirable behavior. It's just a matter of degrees.

    Defining aversives in terms of what we believe to be socially acceptable causes a lot of misconceptions among the general public and I believe is a terrible idea.

    If we want to talk about learning theory then let's talk about it in full.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 09-08-2013 at 07:49 AM.
    Darrin Greene

  10. #30
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    after awhile its like listening to porn on the radio.

    /Paul
    That one is a CLASSIC Paul!
    Darrin Greene

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