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Thread: Please define secondary selection

  1. #31
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kip View Post
    Had a good friend ask me today why I train by myself and not in a group with a other Ams. I told her I got tired of the pissing matches between everyone on who knew more than the other, threads like these prove my point

    Classic stuff there Kip
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    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  2. #32
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post

    Here is the original post. Thus, contrary to what Susan said, the poster is asking about terminology. Moreover, in this thread, most field trial people take the term "secondary selection" to mean picking up the shortest bird remaining after picking up the go bird. See

    - Ed Aycock, post 2
    - Dave
    - Rorem, post 8
    - Howard Niemi, post 18
    - Earl Dillow, post 24

    It is unclear what Susan believes the term means, but I would agree with Ed, Dave, Howard, and Earl - as a matter of terminology. See post 12.

    As to what to do in competition, that is another question - one not asked by the OP and one far more complicated to boot.
    Really Ted? There is NOTHING contrary to what I wrote in the OP and I certainly didn't say that the OP wasn't asking about terminolgy. I was expressing my opinion that people get hung up on definitions and so focused on it, they fail to understand the task at hand. (I wasn't aware that i needed to raise my hand, or ask for an audience from OZ to express my opinion, BTW.) I also stated that I have met many people who define Secondary Selection as Steve does, and that I would not dream of criticizing them for having a different definition than what I may have - unlike others who may feel that it is necessary to brow beat someone into strict obedience. I also stated that the best approach was to help them understand the task at hand in order to achieve success. It can also be easily seen in post 26 that I agreed with Earl Dillow's definition of Secondary Selection. But, unlike others, I would not be so bold to speak for the entire field trial community as to what they believe, or may not believe. I know of no poll that has been held regarding this definition. And, before anyone tries to start a poll on this matter on RTF, I would have to say that I don't think RTF represents the entire field trial community. Of course, I also didn't know of any dog food poll at any national because I was never asked. I believe it was ASSumed what my dog was fed.

    Lastly, I agree with Kip, on post #29. Hope that is clear enough for all.
    Susan

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  3. #33
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    say the same thing, but since the said it now its hard fact from expert testimony.

    /Paul
    Yep. Dr. Ed had it in post #2. But,

    OZ has spoken! (picture a gong, smoke, etc..... )
    Last edited by JusticeDog; 09-08-2013 at 02:00 PM.
    Susan

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeDog View Post
    Really Ted? There is NOTHING contrary to what I wrote in the OP and I certainly didn't say that the OP wasn't asking about terminolgy. I was expressing my opinion that people get hung up on definitions and so focused on it, they fail to understand the task at hand. (I wasn't aware that i needed to raise my hand, or ask for an audience from OZ to express my opinion, BTW.) I also stated that I have met many people who define Secondary Selection as Steve does, and that I would not dream of criticizing them for having a different definition than what I may have - unlike others who may feel that it is necessary to brow beat someone into strict obedience. I also stated that the best approach was to help them understand the task at hand in order to achieve success. It can also be easily seen in post 26 that I agreed with Earl Dillow's definition of Secondary Selection. But, unlike others, I would not be so bold to speak for the entire field trial community as to what they believe, or may not believe. I know of no poll that has been held regarding this definition. And, before anyone tries to start a poll on this matter on RTF, I would have to say that I don't think RTF represents the entire field trial community. Of course, I also didn't know of any dog food poll at any national because I was never asked. I believe it was ASSumed what my dog was fed.

    Lastly, I agree with Kip, on post #29. Hope that is clear enough for all.
    Don't worry Susan, he's just stating what he was told by someone. Whats missing from the discussion, which I added, is the reason for secondary selection. Why it even exists. The behavior that drives the need for training on it. You basically said a similar thought.

    /Paul
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  5. #35
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Here's an opinion from December 2008:


    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    From North of the Border:
    SO much snow to shovel that I missed the start of this discussion-but here’s my thoughts.

    History of Selection (in brief)
    In the good old days “selection” meant ‘sending your dog on the first retrieve for a bird other than the last bird down’ (go-bird). The test that really got this idea going was the indent in which you had a short retired in the middle and the flyer last bird down longer on the outside. This has been called the McAssey Test (John McAssey). This kind of selection became known as Primary selection and Rex Carr was one of its early proponents.
    Primary selection has always been controversial because of the difficulty of pulling off flyers. Dogs reliable in training where not always reliable at trials (hmm –no kidding!) Often a lot of pressure was used. Interestingly in Canada, where all birds were dead, Primary selection was much easier and more often seen.

    Secondary selection occurred when the handler selected which bird was picked up second. Usually, this meant the flyer was picked up first as a go-bird and then the next shortest bird was picked up. Again this was often that short retired bird with a longer one to go and after a longer one. Because this pattern was the most common, it became convention to call Secondary Selection, “picking up the short bird second”. In reality, it is secondary selection occurs when the handler selects which bird is retrieved second. One can even talk about tertiary selection when the handler selects which bird is third (as might be needed in a quad).

    Eventually, Rex Carr abandoned primary selection because dogs AND handlers were unreliable at doing it. It wasn’t reasonable to pursue with all dogs. Later, he pursued picking up the short bird last. Dave Rorem trained extensively with Rex in the early 90’s when Rex preached this approach. Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).

    Why do dogs over-run short?
    1. We train so much on this in formative years-Short-long ad nauseum in Derby-teach that punch bird, get that long retired-force back-drive long!
    2. Experienced dogs love flyers-ever notice short birds second as flyers are relatively easy? (Hint-great way to train short retireds). Dogs know when short birds are dead-they may be less certain that long bird was dead. Rex said to me: He wanted that long bird-he was hoping it was a flyer!” Note: Canadian dogs often primary select to short birds on their own when never exposed to flyers.
    3. Visible birds are easier to remember than retired- a long visible is more attracting than a short retired-duh!
    4. Dogs that have run long naturally are comfortable running long again because they have just been successful doing that.

    What do I do?

    For Chris: I say “Never says Always but Never say Never!”

    I train over and over on being able to take a short bird after a longer bird. In day to day training this is usually second for clarity and simplicity although it could be done second, third or 4th. Is this secondary-yes! I am always selecting which bird is second in training. Is it tertiary –sometimes it is also. Is it ideal- yes because I’m deciding which bird next. I occasionally train on Primary for control reasons. Enough that I could do it in some trial situations.

    In a trial, I “usually” go with my dog’s strengths- what is he best at? Because of my training, I often feel comfortable digging out that short retired second but not “always”. PS. I have both won and lost a National in the 10th by going contrary to my training. Four times the decision has been which bird to take 3rd when there was a middle and a long retired left.
    There is always both Science and Art to handling! Knowing when to go with the dog and when to not go with the dog is the Art!

    Cheers
    Renee P

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Here's an opinion from December 2008:
    If secondary selection caused this much turmoil , what about Jack Gwaltney's idea of "positivity marking" vs "ideal selection" ...? Ted , Ed . Howard, Paul, John , and any others are welcome to comment on these two ides of picking up the birds...This is to help the OP to understand there is far more to selection than just which bird to get second....Steve S....
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  7. #37
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    My singular response to the inquiry is based on the definition of selection in general as defined by Rex and well chronicled by Dennis and others. My first exposure was in 1980 when first bird selection was in vogue. We spent an inordinate amount of time working on the concept in training but as Dennis stated not all dogs were reliable selectors in competition including my Percy (FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit). Sometime in the next generation of dogs we followed the principles of second bird selection as defined by Rex and my post #2. Later Rex adopted the let the dog get whatever bird it wants approach which has come to be defined as "ideal selection". While I am still philosophically wedded to second bird selection I find strict adherence to the principle is at times disadvantageous and I stray to some hybrid form of selection. What I have learned is that sometimes you have to try to influence your dog and sometimes you have to let your dog influence you. Such are my objections to hypothetical dog training and labeling. The important part is pick a system which suits you and your dog and be consistent, dogs tend to thrive on order and consistency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    My singular response to the inquiry is based on the definition of selection in general as defined by Rex and well chronicled by Dennis and others. My first exposure was in 1980 when first bird selection was in vogue. We spent an inordinate amount of time working on the concept in training but as Dennis stated not all dogs were reliable selectors in competition including my Percy (FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit). Sometime in the next generation of dogs we followed the principles of second bird selection as defined by Rex and my post #2. Later Rex adopted the let the dog get whatever bird it wants approach which has come to be defined as "ideal selection". While I am still philosophically wedded to second bird selection I find strict adherence to the principle is at times disadvantageous and I stray to some hybrid form of selection. What I have learned is that sometimes you have to try to influence your dog and sometimes you have to let your dog influence you. Such are my objections to hypothetical dog training and labeling. The important part is pick a system which suits you and your dog and be consistent, dogs tend to thrive on order and consistency.




    Agreed ...Also as you stated some times we must allow the dog the right to choose or run the show to be successful...
    For argument purpose only ...
    "Eventually, Rex Carr abandoned primary selection because dogs AND handlers were unreliable at doing it. It wasn’t reasonable to pursue with all dogs. Later, he pursued picking up the short bird last. Dave Rorem trained extensively with Rex in the early 90’s when Rex preached this approach. Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second). Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  9. #39
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    If the dog wants to pick up the last bird down and is allowed/released to do so , is that any type of(handler) selection at all ?????

    If the dog is pulled off the last bird down and sent to retrieve any other bird in the setup, is that not primary selection?

    When the dog returns with the first bird it has picked up, and the handler then picks out and sends the dog for the second bird to be picked up, no matter in which order it was thrown, or where it resides in the field, why is that not termed secondary selection ? After all it is the bird the handler decided was to be picked up second.


    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 09-08-2013 at 05:10 PM.
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  10. #40
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    Ed's point about dogs is well described. One of my MH dogs, Trapper, has historically been great at selection for me. Regardless if its a flyer or not, he will pretty much let me pick the birds and off he goes. He is a full brother to Zeus (FC/AFC Pure Labs Skys The Limit) that Pete Goodale owned. While not quite as talented as his brother, he's a very good marking dog and is comfortable on the line letting me pull the trigger. The month we ran a master test at Peppers and in the first series the first bird was a little nothing bird thrown into water towards an island, the middle second bird was the key tough bird down a hill across a road across water onto the backside of an island with thick cover. Most dogs struggled on this bird. Go bird was a flyer down the shore shot into water/lilly pads. Trap watched the birds go down and immediately locked onto the middle bird and I once tried to have him come around for the flyer, he told me clearly he wanted that middle bird. There was no reason to argue with him, it was "the" bird in that series so I let him settle and sent him. Now this was probably the first time ever he's clearly communicated I need this bird and it worked out as he nailed the series and went on to pass. Next two series he was same old Trapper. There is a time and place for selection, regardless of a perceived definition of what it is. Handling is an art. Reading dogs is an art. Knowing the dog your working with is priceless. When i attended the Rorem seminar he talked about Ideal Selection and two things stuck in my head as he talked about it.

    1. It takes a very good dog to consistently succeed at Ideal Selection. They have to be a great marker, calm, confident, and wise.
    2. It takes an experienced handler to know when not to get in the way of a dog capable of Ideal Marking. In the rare dogs that can do this, handlers typically muck it up trying to follow traditional perceived handling methods brought on by rigid thinking of how things should be done.

    As Susan stated, you can debate the definition of what secondary selection is, at the end of the day you have to know your dog, know its strength/weaknesses and know what your game plan is for running the test in front of you. Call it what you want....

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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