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Please define secondary selection

26K views 116 replies 32 participants last post by  jeff evans 
#1 ·
I'm watching the Total Retriever Marking and they've set up an out of order flier (first bird down, thrown in toward the middle), a short middle bird thrown in the direction of the flier that retires and a long bird off to the right.

I'm just seeing them take them the birds up in order right to left. So maybe I don't understand the terminology. I must be missing something.
 
#4 ·
Secondary selections means the dog gets the last bird down first and then you choose the next one...usually the shortest one...Steve S
Bold by me.

Sorry Steve, there is no choice in the matter, the shorter of the two memory birds is to be picked up 2nd and the long bird last. Dave Rorem has a term for picking up the long bird 2nd. I believe he calls it Ideal selection. I don't know if he does it with all his dogs or just a few.

I spend a lot of time training secondary selection, picking out the short retired with a visible long gun out.
 
#6 ·
The problem is once a dog has gone long, getting them to go short is very difficult. Pull next shortest bird out then go long. Ideal selection takes a very good dog, comfortable and relaxed on the line and excellent marker.

/Paul
 
#7 ·
Agree and can be one of the hardest things for a dog, I train for this in gundog situations and feel it is very important.
 
#62 · (Edited)
I disagree, It doesn't require an excellent marker, it requires a dog that can count and requires a good trainer and high standards. Any mutt worth trialing can be taught to ideal select, with the proper training. I wouldn't enter a dog in a Q unless it had learned secondary selection, and even understand what Dr. Ed said "hybrid selection" or "ideal". It's really fundamental for field trial retrievers and the ones with FC AFC in front of their name have mastered selection. If every dog is crashing and burning picking birds up in a certain order, you need the tool of selection....sometimes you look like a hero and sometimes you look like a jackwagon but you have to put your marbles on the table and select a bird sometimes:):)
 
#10 ·
I was under the impression that secondary selection was training the dog to select what ever bird the handler wants after retrieving the (primary bird) go bird?

Yes... that was what I thought secondary selection was and when they took the marks "in order", I was confused. So what I get from this is that it has to do with the short mark. Next question... is "short" a relative term? If the marks are (say) 275 yd., the middle 320 and the go bird 300, does distance alone mean you shouldn't pick them up in order? Would you necessarily go outside, outside in?
 
#11 ·
I think people get too hung up on the names rather than focusing how to pull birds out of the test and why...... Before, we just argued over primary and secondary selection, and now Dave has added Ideal selection to the next. Is more advantageous to just know the principles of what you are doing then what it is called....

You have to decide your strategy when you go to line, and sometimes even base it on the dog you are running.
 
#19 ·
Agree I just want to git the chickens and when I train train. At a hunt test or trial if my dog wants the shortest bird last or the longest bird or something inbetween it's OK I just want to make it to the next series.
Each dog as Susan indicated might do things a little different. Example if your at a hunt test or trial, one might say (watched it as a judge many times) I gonna make him get that bird, I can see the guy/gal with their taillights going down the road after that series in my mind now.
 
#12 ·
There are many different ways to pickup the birds in competition. However, if you engage in secondary selection, the order is as follows:

- First, pick up last bird thrown (go bird)
- Second, pick up shortest remaining bird next
- Third, pick up the shortest remaining bird next (if triple)
- Fourth, pick up the shortest remaining bird next (if quad)

So under secondary selection principles, after the go bird, pick up the shortest remaining bird
 
#15 ·
What I gather from having attended the Dave Rorem handling seminar here earlier this year, is that Ideal Selection occurs when you let Fido decide what order to pick up the birds. With secondary selection, you direct Fido to pick up the short birds first, even if Fido has his eye on that long flyer. With secondary selection, you direct Fido to to pick up the short retired, then the long flyer.

The problem is that Fido wants that flyer.

Enter Ideal Selection. With Ideal Selection you are not imposing your will on Fido, you can let him get the flyer first, and still count on him to pick up the short retired. He said that a dog who can do Ideal Selection has a higher success rate on those kinds of setups than if you do Secondary Selection.

Apologies to Mr. Rorem if I have that wrong. I believe he credited Rex Carr with the concept.
 
#17 ·
What I gather from having attended the Dave Rorem handling seminar here earlier this year, is that Ideal Selection occurs when you let Fido decide what order to pick up the birds. With secondary selection, you direct Fido to pick up the short birds first, even if Fido has his eye on that long flyer. With secondary selection, you direct Fido to to pick up the short retired, then the long flyer.

The problem is that Fido wants that flyer.

Enter Ideal Selection. With Ideal Selection you are not imposing your will on Fido, you can let him get the flyer first, and still count on him to pick up the short retired. He said that a dog who can do Ideal Selection has a higher success rate on those kinds of setups than if you do Secondary Selection.

Apologies to Mr. Rorem if I have that wrong. I believe he credited Rex Carr with the concept.
This is what it is all about ...Can the dog maintain memory of all the bird on the field ...I believe any interruption into the dogs mind as he/she goes about their task clouds this memory...Primary or secondary does just this ...But letting the dog get them the way they want to has less negative effect on the dogs memory ....If the dog knows where the bird is ,it will go get it....Steve S
 
#18 ·
I'm just saying secondary means second choice....Steve S
Yup, and that's the next shortest bird in secondary selection.
 
#23 ·
Actually, Steve is not alone in his definition, and I wouldn't say "most" field trial people use the term in that manner. I have found that many people use it in that manner, focusing on the portion of the word "second" in the term "Secondary".... that is why I suggest to people coming into the sport to NOT focus on definitions, but on what you actually need to do in order to get birds out of the field. Worry about what to call it later.... and if you do it properly, you can just call it success. I just don't think it's a good thing to focus on the semantics of a definition, but would rather spend my time being helpful to the person with the actual question and look at what they are trying to achieve.
 
#24 ·
Not to get in a semantics issue and having trained many retrievers over the years , advised by those with many more pelts then I have/had, secondary selection as I was taught, is getting the next shortest bird second after the go bird in training. At a trial or hunt test well see #19 post.
 
#26 ·
I agree Earl.
 
#27 ·
Secondary selection taught to me by those much more accomplished then myself is picking up the second shortest bird after the go bird in training. It is a long standing field trial term as I have been taught since the early 80's . Now lets not talk about primary selection! See post #19 everything has a label I realize, but, secondary selection is secondary selection ultimate goal of many trialers, have not heard the term around hunt testers. Have run many hunt tests, but, always with dogs that were trial trained.
 
#28 ·
I'm watching the Total Retriever Marking and they've set up an out of order flier (first bird down, thrown in toward the middle), a short middle bird thrown in the direction of the flier that retires and a long bird off to the right.

I'm just seeing them take them the birds u p in order right to left. So maybe I don't understand the terminology. I must be missing something.

Here is the original post. Thus, contrary to what Susan said, the poster is asking about terminology. Moreover, in this thread, most field trial people take the term "secondary selection" to mean picking up the shortest bird remaining after picking up the go bird. See

- Ed Aycock, post 2
- Dave
- Rorem, post 8
- Howard Niemi, post 18
- Earl Dillow, post 24

It is unclear what Susan believes the term means, but I would agree with Ed, Dave, Howard, and Earl - as a matter of terminology. See post 12.

As to what to do in competition, that is another question - one not asked by the OP and one far more complicated to boot.
 
#32 ·

Here is the original post. Thus, contrary to what Susan said, the poster is asking about terminology. Moreover, in this thread, most field trial people take the term "secondary selection" to mean picking up the shortest bird remaining after picking up the go bird. See

- Ed Aycock, post 2
- Dave
- Rorem, post 8
- Howard Niemi, post 18
- Earl Dillow, post 24

It is unclear what Susan believes the term means, but I would agree with Ed, Dave, Howard, and Earl - as a matter of terminology. See post 12.

As to what to do in competition, that is another question - one not asked by the OP and one far more complicated to boot.
Really Ted? There is NOTHING contrary to what I wrote in the OP and I certainly didn't say that the OP wasn't asking about terminolgy. I was expressing my opinion that people get hung up on definitions and so focused on it, they fail to understand the task at hand. (I wasn't aware that i needed to raise my hand, or ask for an audience from OZ to express my opinion, BTW.) I also stated that I have met many people who define Secondary Selection as Steve does, and that I would not dream of criticizing them for having a different definition than what I may have - unlike others who may feel that it is necessary to brow beat someone into strict obedience. I also stated that the best approach was to help them understand the task at hand in order to achieve success. It can also be easily seen in post 26 that I agreed with Earl Dillow's definition of Secondary Selection. But, unlike others, I would not be so bold to speak for the entire field trial community as to what they believe, or may not believe. I know of no poll that has been held regarding this definition. And, before anyone tries to start a poll on this matter on RTF, I would have to say that I don't think RTF represents the entire field trial community. Of course, I also didn't know of any dog food poll at any national because I was never asked. I believe it was ASSumed what my dog was fed.

Lastly, I agree with Kip, on post #29. Hope that is clear enough for all.
 
#35 ·
Here's an opinion from December 2008:


From North of the Border:
SO much snow to shovel that I missed the start of this discussion-but here’s my thoughts.

History of Selection (in brief)
In the good old days “selection” meant ‘sending your dog on the first retrieve for a bird other than the last bird down’ (go-bird). The test that really got this idea going was the indent in which you had a short retired in the middle and the flyer last bird down longer on the outside. This has been called the McAssey Test (John McAssey). This kind of selection became known as Primary selection and Rex Carr was one of its early proponents.
Primary selection has always been controversial because of the difficulty of pulling off flyers. Dogs reliable in training where not always reliable at trials (hmm –no kidding!) Often a lot of pressure was used. Interestingly in Canada, where all birds were dead, Primary selection was much easier and more often seen.

Secondary selection occurred when the handler selected which bird was picked up second. Usually, this meant the flyer was picked up first as a go-bird and then the next shortest bird was picked up. Again this was often that short retired bird with a longer one to go and after a longer one. Because this pattern was the most common, it became convention to call Secondary Selection, “picking up the short bird second”. In reality, it is secondary selection occurs when the handler selects which bird is retrieved second. One can even talk about tertiary selection when the handler selects which bird is third (as might be needed in a quad).

Eventually, Rex Carr abandoned primary selection because dogs AND handlers were unreliable at doing it. It wasn’t reasonable to pursue with all dogs. Later, he pursued picking up the short bird last. Dave Rorem trained extensively with Rex in the early 90’s when Rex preached this approach. Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).

Why do dogs over-run short?
1. We train so much on this in formative years-Short-long ad nauseum in Derby-teach that punch bird, get that long retired-force back-drive long!
2. Experienced dogs love flyers-ever notice short birds second as flyers are relatively easy? (Hint-great way to train short retireds). Dogs know when short birds are dead-they may be less certain that long bird was dead. Rex said to me: He wanted that long bird-he was hoping it was a flyer!” Note: Canadian dogs often primary select to short birds on their own when never exposed to flyers.
3. Visible birds are easier to remember than retired- a long visible is more attracting than a short retired-duh!
4. Dogs that have run long naturally are comfortable running long again because they have just been successful doing that.

What do I do?

For Chris: I say “Never says Always but Never say Never!”

I train over and over on being able to take a short bird after a longer bird. In day to day training this is usually second for clarity and simplicity although it could be done second, third or 4th. Is this secondary-yes! I am always selecting which bird is second in training. Is it tertiary –sometimes it is also. Is it ideal- yes because I’m deciding which bird next. I occasionally train on Primary for control reasons. Enough that I could do it in some trial situations.

In a trial, I “usually” go with my dog’s strengths- what is he best at? Because of my training, I often feel comfortable digging out that short retired second but not “always”. PS. I have both won and lost a National in the 10th by going contrary to my training. Four times the decision has been which bird to take 3rd when there was a middle and a long retired left.
There is always both Science and Art to handling! Knowing when to go with the dog and when to not go with the dog is the Art!

Cheers
 
#36 ·
If secondary selection caused this much turmoil , what about Jack Gwaltney's idea of "positivity marking" vs "ideal selection" ...? Ted , Ed . Howard, Paul, John , and any others are welcome to comment on these two ides of picking up the birds...This is to help the OP to understand there is far more to selection than just which bird to get second....Steve S....
 
#37 ·
My singular response to the inquiry is based on the definition of selection in general as defined by Rex and well chronicled by Dennis and others. My first exposure was in 1980 when first bird selection was in vogue. We spent an inordinate amount of time working on the concept in training but as Dennis stated not all dogs were reliable selectors in competition including my Percy (FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit). Sometime in the next generation of dogs we followed the principles of second bird selection as defined by Rex and my post #2. Later Rex adopted the let the dog get whatever bird it wants approach which has come to be defined as "ideal selection". While I am still philosophically wedded to second bird selection I find strict adherence to the principle is at times disadvantageous and I stray to some hybrid form of selection. What I have learned is that sometimes you have to try to influence your dog and sometimes you have to let your dog influence you. Such are my objections to hypothetical dog training and labeling. The important part is pick a system which suits you and your dog and be consistent, dogs tend to thrive on order and consistency.
 
#38 ·
My singular response to the inquiry is based on the definition of selection in general as defined by Rex and well chronicled by Dennis and others. My first exposure was in 1980 when first bird selection was in vogue. We spent an inordinate amount of time working on the concept in training but as Dennis stated not all dogs were reliable selectors in competition including my Percy (FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit). Sometime in the next generation of dogs we followed the principles of second bird selection as defined by Rex and my post #2. Later Rex adopted the let the dog get whatever bird it wants approach which has come to be defined as "ideal selection". While I am still philosophically wedded to second bird selection I find strict adherence to the principle is at times disadvantageous and I stray to some hybrid form of selection. What I have learned is that sometimes you have to try to influence your dog and sometimes you have to let your dog influence you. Such are my objections to hypothetical dog training and labeling. The important part is pick a system which suits you and your dog and be consistent, dogs tend to thrive on order and consistency.




Agreed ...Also as you stated some times we must allow the dog the right to choose or run the show to be successful...
For argument purpose only ...
"Eventually, Rex Carr abandoned primary selection because dogs AND handlers were unreliable at doing it. It wasn’t reasonable to pursue with all dogs. Later, he pursued picking up the short bird last. Dave Rorem trained extensively with Rex in the early 90’s when Rex preached this approach. Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second). Steve S
 
#39 · (Edited)
If the dog wants to pick up the last bird down and is allowed/released to do so , is that any type of(handler) selection at all ?????

If the dog is pulled off the last bird down and sent to retrieve any other bird in the setup, is that not primary selection?

When the dog returns with the first bird it has picked up, and the handler then picks out and sends the dog for the second bird to be picked up, no matter in which order it was thrown, or where it resides in the field, why is that not termed secondary selection ? After all it is the bird the handler decided was to be picked up second.


john
 
#40 ·
Ed's point about dogs is well described. One of my MH dogs, Trapper, has historically been great at selection for me. Regardless if its a flyer or not, he will pretty much let me pick the birds and off he goes. He is a full brother to Zeus (FC/AFC Pure Labs Skys The Limit) that Pete Goodale owned. While not quite as talented as his brother, he's a very good marking dog and is comfortable on the line letting me pull the trigger. The month we ran a master test at Peppers and in the first series the first bird was a little nothing bird thrown into water towards an island, the middle second bird was the key tough bird down a hill across a road across water onto the backside of an island with thick cover. Most dogs struggled on this bird. Go bird was a flyer down the shore shot into water/lilly pads. Trap watched the birds go down and immediately locked onto the middle bird and I once tried to have him come around for the flyer, he told me clearly he wanted that middle bird. There was no reason to argue with him, it was "the" bird in that series so I let him settle and sent him. Now this was probably the first time ever he's clearly communicated I need this bird and it worked out as he nailed the series and went on to pass. Next two series he was same old Trapper. There is a time and place for selection, regardless of a perceived definition of what it is. Handling is an art. Reading dogs is an art. Knowing the dog your working with is priceless. When i attended the Rorem seminar he talked about Ideal Selection and two things stuck in my head as he talked about it.

1. It takes a very good dog to consistently succeed at Ideal Selection. They have to be a great marker, calm, confident, and wise.
2. It takes an experienced handler to know when not to get in the way of a dog capable of Ideal Marking. In the rare dogs that can do this, handlers typically muck it up trying to follow traditional perceived handling methods brought on by rigid thinking of how things should be done.

As Susan stated, you can debate the definition of what secondary selection is, at the end of the day you have to know your dog, know its strength/weaknesses and know what your game plan is for running the test in front of you. Call it what you want....

/Paul
 
#42 ·
At which Field Trials did Trap demonstrate his marking skills and you exhibit your prowess at reading and handling a dog?
 
#43 ·
What happens when you run a venue where the Judges can and do dictate order of pick up?

They may tell you in the briefing that the last bird down , is stone dead in the decoys, but, the second bird thrown in the multiple mark, was a crippled bird, and you must pick it up first.

So, dont those Dogs have to have a very good understanding of "selection" and be very compliant about which bird the handler MAY demand the dog to retrieve?

I suppose you call this "Primary" selection.


A dog that is consistently trained to pick up the next shortest bird after the LBD on a very regular basis,, tell me what is the Handler and dog selecting.

Isnt that "Secondary" selection then, just a consistent routine?


Gooser
 
#44 ·
Why dont we just call the act of the handler making the decision of what bird to pick up,,,,, "Selection",, and leave the confusing adjective,, primary, secondary and Ideal (Which makes you think that's the "Best") off?
 
#46 · (Edited)
This is the reason we ( they ) don't do it that way .......It has none thing to do with which is the best way to do it ...It's all about everyone being on the same page so to speak...Steve S
Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post

Ted, I also included the words "conveying a thought " Isn't that what you are trying to do..? I understand the need(desire) for all retriever people to have the same meaning attached to all terms and words used in communication so there is no confusion in the communication process...We all form the same picture in our minds....I'm just saying secondary means second choice....Steve S


If you want to simplify communication, you comply with convention and accept traditional meaning to terms.
If you want to complicate communication, you buck convention and create new meanings for traditional terms.
You are free to use the term "secondary selection" however you choose. However, your use is contrary to how most people in the sport use it.

Ted
 
#50 · (Edited)
if /paul posts a thoughtful and constructive answer on his first post and is ornery on his second post......is he a "secondary a-hole"? if he waits until his third post to be mean, is he an "ideal a-hole"?:p

if ted gives meaningful insight on his first post and waits until his second post to look down his nose on a hunt tester.....is he a "secondary snob"? if ted................you know the rest.:p

rtf cracks me up!

note:
i would train with paul, he is not an a-hole.
i would train with ted, he is not a snob and has helped me personally.
i would train with kip, i don't see how but i guess he thinks i am a know it all? ;-)
 
#54 ·
Secondary selection is used 90% of the time, it is the default, you might want a diagram showing the rare cases where primary selection would be used. Secondary selection is simply "last bird down, short to long", it's what almost everybody does even if they never had a name for it.
 
#57 ·
Thanks John. I am being taught to do the same thing in training, but I am also being taught that an event is not training and you do what it takes to get the bird and get called back.

That was a good setup you described there, and I bet it was something to see when those 4 dogs pinned that long bird. I assume that the wind was blowing right to left, and the dogs that weren't really honest in that narrow strip of water probably got too far out to the right and upwind of the bird?
 
#60 ·
A few points:

1. A handler has the ability to influence what bird the dog sets up for upon returning on the mat. Many times when a handler says "My dog wanted that bird" what they are saying is I didn't act decisively in influencing what bird to retrieve next.
2. If you break your training rules in competition (sit standard, selection, etc.) on a regular basis, pretty soon your dog understands that in competition it gets to do what it pleases
3. There is a good reason that most of us insist on secondary selection in training.
4. I would tend to follow secondary selection with a younger dog. I would tend to trust an older war horse.
 
#61 ·
A few points:

1. A handler has the ability to influence what bird the dog sets up for upon returning on the mat. Many times when a handler says "My dog wanted that bird" what they are saying is I didn't act decisively in influencing what bird to retrieve next.


That is a very good point. I have been working more on getting that 'first look'. When the dog comes back with a bird, I want him to look out at the bird that I want him to get first thing--before I take the bird or do anything else. It does minimize the times when the dog appears to want to do something else.
 
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