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Please define secondary selection

26K views 116 replies 32 participants last post by  jeff evans 
#1 ·
I'm watching the Total Retriever Marking and they've set up an out of order flier (first bird down, thrown in toward the middle), a short middle bird thrown in the direction of the flier that retires and a long bird off to the right.

I'm just seeing them take them the birds up in order right to left. So maybe I don't understand the terminology. I must be missing something.
 
#64 ·
Over the years I had the opportunity to train with some folks who did quite well with their dogs. To quote the late Mike Greene "get the cripples out of the way before you go after the tough ones", which is a different way of saying shortest bird next in line, irrespective of order thrown. I also had the privilege of day training with one of the greats in this sport for over 20 years, all you had to do was watch the examples in training to see what worked well.

The only time I believe you can have a problem is when it's difficult for the dog to recognize that there is a short bird next to be taken out of order. & that happens, then you have to prove your worth as a handler.
 
#68 ·
Over the years I had the opportunity to train with some folks who did quite well with their dogs. To quote the late Mike Greene "get the cripples out of the way before you go after the tough ones", which is a different way of saying shortest bird next in line, irrespective of order thrown. I also had the privilege of day training with one of the greats in this sport for over 20 years, all you had to do was watch the examples in training to see what worked well.

The only time I believe you can have a problem is when it's difficult for the dog to recognize that there is a short bird next to be taken out of order. & that happens, then you have to prove your worth as a handler.
Shows the difference in hunting and trialing or "an ordinary day's shoot". In hunting, the cripples are the tough ones... (If you care about losing them). Most often, in a hunting situation the stone dead birds will be the closest ones and the cripples will be the furthest away. So, when running a poison bird blind while hunting, you're running the dog past a dead bird to get a cripple. (At least in my experience, anyway).

Another good reason for this type of training. Go to whatever bird you are sent for, long or short. It's a thing of beauty when they do it.
 
#65 ·
So after all this discussion. Does anybody train for "Ideal" selection as Dave describes??

eg; In training making the dog pick up the shortest bird last.......So that in a trial they can use "Ideal" selection vs Secondary????

Or do the you train with "Secondary" selection as your default?


This is an honest question. When I left the game it was "secondary" selection all the way. We trained that way and handled that way....

Has anything changed???


Curious, Randy
 
#66 ·
So after all this discussion. Does anybody train for "Ideal" selection as Dave describes??

eg; In training making the dog pick up the shortest bird last.......So that in a trial they can use "Ideal" selection vs Secondary????

Or do the you train with "Secondary" selection as your default?


This is an honest question. When I left the game it was "secondary" selection all the way. We trained that way and handled that way....

Has anything changed???




Curious, Randy
No, I think most people train the way you did, secondary selection as the default. We occasionally do a delayed triple, or pull off a double to run a blind to spice things up.
 
#73 · (Edited)
Probably not, but tried by many....As Rex stated and gave it up ...too hard to teach to most dogs ...the reason is because dogs can be head strong.....As Dennis has stated, it is practiced a lot in Canada...The reason is because of no flyers ,thus less of a temptation for the dog to choose which one it wants....If practiced a lot the concept must not be that hard to teach ...It is all about the dog giving to the handlers will...Steve S
 
#83 ·
AGAIN I ASK!


What happens when you run a venue where the Judges can and do dictate order of pick up?

They may tell you in the briefing that the last bird down , is stone dead in the decoys, but, the second bird thrown in the multiple mark, was a crippled bird, and you must pick it up first.

So, dont those Dogs have to have a very good understanding of "selection" and be very compliant about which bird the handler MAY demand the dog to retrieve?

I suppose you call this "Primary" selection.


A dog that is consistently trained to pick up the next shortest bird after the LBD on a very regular basis,, tell me what is the Handler and dog selecting.

Isnt that "Secondary" selection then, just a consistent routine?


Gooser​
 
#90 ·
gooser- What venue do you run where the judges dictate the order you must pick up the birds? I have only run akc fts, akc hts, and Ukc hts.
 
#92 · (Edited)
Ted , this is going to be my last post on the subject... You good and well know the reason it isn't done is because of the dogs desire to get the flyer...not the short dead bird....I also stated if all is equal the dog is not as hard to convince to give to the handler...Have a good night ...Steve S PS: I have had the privilege to sit beside Rex and talk dog for week at his place...In case you need to look for a feather in my cap.....
 
#93 ·
I would find your explanation as inexplicable and contradictory if you had 20 feathers in your cap.
 
#98 ·
You are hunting a river channel.

Several birds come in

Theys all flyers.

the last one that falls lands stone dead on the near bank, but one a them is crippled, and is in river current swimming downstream. Which one a them flyers you goin after first?

and really how hard was it to train the dog to do it?
 
#105 ·
A "river wise" dog will run the bank past the long one then enter the river and intercept it, and on the return will pick the other one up and bring them both in at the same time to save a few steps:D

john
 
#99 · (Edited)
To the traing group I train with, who chastise me for running my mouth here, when I should be training instead.

Its 11:35 PM, I just got home from work,it's pourin rain. The sun ain't shinin, ( see other thread).
Mrs Gooser is asleep, Flinch don't go out in the rain, I don't have nothin better to do , so, I am eatin a doughnut, and postin my 2 cents.

You can take it out on me when Ya see me next.

Gooser
 
#100 ·
Ted, how many dogs have you personally trained, with no pro involvement, how many and what to titles? We all know you buy dogs and pay to have them trained. In a true training discussion the best you can do is repeat whatever pro you were paying at the time. I have no issue with your love for dogs, he sport, knowledge of judging and the rules but until you train a dog to do more than piss on a tree you might want to back down. Having money does not a dog trainer make.

/Paul
 
#114 ·
WTH he judged the National and you are implying he hasn't trained a dog? I hope the hell you are wrong. Then again what is the saying? If you can't play it coach it if you can't coach it referee it. Oh that's football not dawgs.
 
#107 ·
When HUNTING.

Dont you guys think that MANY times there might not be true Last bird down? ( are you ALWAYS sure what bird fell last?)
I mean if even just 2 guys are hunting together, isnt the action a volly of shots,with birds falling prett much at the same time?

When thats over, Gooser's eyes are crossed, Hat is bakards, glasses have fallen off, from the recoil of them silly 4 7/8 Magnums 8 guage shells I is shootin..
The dog (If steady...(Never:))) may be locked on a bird that is down,, but, many times, at least when Ya hunt with me,, there is a crippled bird tryin to escape..
Often, you may require the dog to "No" off a particular go bird, to pick up another..

I get told all the time when I give an example like this, folks say,,, " No WONDER your dog cant run tests!" :)

Hunting.... Marks often are in current where the bird floats or swims off... Very seldom in a HT.
Hunting... Many times marks fall in open water with a splash,, but bird swims to heavy Catail cover, and you are left with a Hunt em up.

I think dogs HAVE to be able to "Select" whether it be primaryily ,seconadrily,, or in the perfect way, "Idealy"

I get confused over all the terms.. and when hunting , dont have the time or mental capacity to stand there and figger out which one is which..

Ok,, Out the door to throw a couple a marks fer Flinch,, just in case training group is taken notes again on my wasting time...:):)

Gooser

P.S.

Miss Susan,,, Like Ted would say,,,,, read the HRC rule book,, and attend a Handler seminar Just pullin your chain.:)
 
#113 ·
P.S.

Miss Susan,,, Like Ted would say,,,,, read the HRC rule book,, and attend a Handler seminar Just pullin your chain.:)
Well sir, I have read The HRC rule book on numerous occasions. And the issue is silent as to whether a judge can dictate or not dictate the order of picking up bird. However I would like my point out that my post said that I was never required in the Midwest to pick up birds in any certain order. Judges in my area tend to want to keep with real-life hunting situations. When you were out hunting, no one dictates the order of the birds you should pick up. It is up to the individual Hunter. And the hunter should be making those choices by determining what is advantageous to get the most game out of the field and not leaving dead birds behind. ie: hunt with a trained retriever. Certain types of tests are certainly regional in nature. And just for the mrecord I have been to judges seminars for HRC before. I made sure I knew the rules before I ever ran one. I only failed two. One was not my dog, and the other was my dog run by someone else. He wanted his mom To run him!

And I really never follow what Ted would say. ;)
 
#108 ·
Was this entire thread really all about arguing different names for basic things, we do everyday? :confused: Ummm who cares about a name as long as the dog get the birds, whether I select order, the dog selects order, or divine interference selects the order, if the dog picks them all up good, better than others; we'll I'm sure I meant to do it that way, and maybe I'll make up some words-develop methods to add a little confusion, on the proper way to teach a dog, and exactly why I choose to have my dog amazingly pick up this bird over that. ;) Or maybe I'll just teach my dog to mark everything, teach him to go where I send him, when I send him regardless of which order. Then I don't have to worry about verbiage, selection order names, or anything else because the dog goes where he's sent, bring back birds.

So was that; Divine influence selection process, or the Don't have a clue "pulled it out of your ..." selection process; either way it worked out real well, you should train for it ;)
 
#109 ·
The beauty of this forum is that someone can pose a rather simple question which is promptly answered in a brief, clear, and concise manner and there ensues a 3 day debate which provides endless entertainment value but totally clouds the issue and confuses the OP.
 
#115 ·
WTH he judged the National
It was the National Am. but no matter... What are the qualifications to judge these events.
From this outsider's perspective, Judging a National is as political as as it gets in the sport .

john
 
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