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Thread: Please define secondary selection

  1. #11
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    I think people get too hung up on the names rather than focusing how to pull birds out of the test and why...... Before, we just argued over primary and secondary selection, and now Dave has added Ideal selection to the next. Is more advantageous to just know the principles of what you are doing then what it is called....

    You have to decide your strategy when you go to line, and sometimes even base it on the dog you are running.
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    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    There are many different ways to pickup the birds in competition. However, if you engage in secondary selection, the order is as follows:

    - First, pick up last bird thrown (go bird)
    - Second, pick up shortest remaining bird next
    - Third, pick up the shortest remaining bird next (if triple)
    - Fourth, pick up the shortest remaining bird next (if quad)

    So under secondary selection principles, after the go bird, pick up the shortest remaining bird
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    Bold by me.

    Sorry Steve, there is no choice in the matter, the shorter of the two memory birds is to be picked up 2nd and the long bird last. Dave Rorem has a term for picking up the long bird 2nd. I believe he calls it Ideal selection. I don't know if he does it with all his dogs or just a few.

    I spend a lot of time training secondary selection, picking out the short retired with a visible long gun out.
    No matter what Dave wants to call choosing the long bird over the short on for his choice of second pick up it is still secondary selection ...secondary means second....It is all about semantics...and trying to convey a thought to others....Ideal takes longer to become confident with, but it sure is pretty when the handler and dog can do it with confidence...Steve S
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    No matter what Dave wants to call choosing the long bird over the short on for his choice of second pick up it is still secondary selection ...secondary means second....It is all about semantics...and trying to convey a thought to others....Ideal takes longer to become confident with, but it sure is pretty when the handler and dog can do it with confidence...Steve S

    I disagree. It is not about semantics - it is about convention. When most field trial people speak and us the term "secondary selection" they are referring to the concept of - after picking up the last bird down first - picking up the shortest remaining bird next. Using your definition of secondary selection, when I pick up the remaining bird of a double, I am in engaging in secondary selection.
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    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    What I gather from having attended the Dave Rorem handling seminar here earlier this year, is that Ideal Selection occurs when you let Fido decide what order to pick up the birds. With secondary selection, you direct Fido to pick up the short birds first, even if Fido has his eye on that long flyer. With secondary selection, you direct Fido to to pick up the short retired, then the long flyer.

    The problem is that Fido wants that flyer.

    Enter Ideal Selection. With Ideal Selection you are not imposing your will on Fido, you can let him get the flyer first, and still count on him to pick up the short retired. He said that a dog who can do Ideal Selection has a higher success rate on those kinds of setups than if you do Secondary Selection.

    Apologies to Mr. Rorem if I have that wrong. I believe he credited Rex Carr with the concept.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post

    I disagree. It is not about semantics - it is about convention. When most field trial people speak and us the term "secondary selection" they are referring to the concept of - after picking up the last bird down first - picking up the shortest remaining bird next. Using your definition of secondary selection, when I pick up the remaining bird of a double, I am in engaging in secondary selection.
    Ted, I also included the words "conveying a thought " Isn't that what you are trying to do..? I understand the need(desire) for all retriever people to have the same meaning attached to all terms and words use in communication so there is no confusion in the communication process...We all form the same picture in our minds....I'm just saying secondary means second choice....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    What I gather from having attended the Dave Rorem handling seminar here earlier this year, is that Ideal Selection occurs when you let Fido decide what order to pick up the birds. With secondary selection, you direct Fido to pick up the short birds first, even if Fido has his eye on that long flyer. With secondary selection, you direct Fido to to pick up the short retired, then the long flyer.

    The problem is that Fido wants that flyer.

    Enter Ideal Selection. With Ideal Selection you are not imposing your will on Fido, you can let him get the flyer first, and still count on him to pick up the short retired. He said that a dog who can do Ideal Selection has a higher success rate on those kinds of setups than if you do Secondary Selection.

    Apologies to Mr. Rorem if I have that wrong. I believe he credited Rex Carr with the concept.
    This is what it is all about ...Can the dog maintain memory of all the bird on the field ...I believe any interruption into the dogs mind as he/she goes about their task clouds this memory...Primary or secondary does just this ...But letting the dog get them the way they want to has less negative effect on the dogs memory ....If the dog knows where the bird is ,it will go get it....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  8. #18
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    I'm just saying secondary means second choice....Steve S
    Yup, and that's the next shortest bird in secondary selection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeDog View Post
    I think people get too hung up on the names rather than focusing how to pull birds out of the test and why...... Before, we just argued over primary and secondary selection, and now Dave has added Ideal selection to the next. Is more advantageous to just know the principles of what you are doing then what it is called....

    You have to decide your strategy when you go to line, and sometimes even base it on the dog you are running.
    Agree I just want to git the chickens and when I train train. At a hunt test or trial if my dog wants the shortest bird last or the longest bird or something inbetween it's OK I just want to make it to the next series.
    Each dog as Susan indicated might do things a little different. Example if your at a hunt test or trial, one might say (watched it as a judge many times) I gonna make him get that bird, I can see the guy/gal with their taillights going down the road after that series in my mind now.
    Earl Dillow

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    Yup, and that's the next shortest bird in secondary selection.
    Have it your way Howard...stay warm up north and enjoy the day ....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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