The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 117

Thread: Please define secondary selection

  1. #41
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    NE OHio
    Posts
    908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    Classic stuff there Kip
    Absolutely
    Jim Weitzel
    Proud member of Ole Roy prostaff

  2. #42
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Golden, Colorado
    Posts
    4,992

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Ed's point about dogs is well described. One of my MH dogs, Trapper, has historically been great at selection for me. Regardless if its a flyer or not, he will pretty much let me pick the birds and off he goes. He is a full brother to Zeus (FC/AFC Pure Labs Skys The Limit) that Pete Goodale owned. While not quite as talented as his brother, he's a very good marking dog and is comfortable on the line letting me pull the trigger. The month we ran a master test at Peppers and in the first series the first bird was a little nothing bird thrown into water towards an island, the middle second bird was the key tough bird down a hill across a road across water onto the backside of an island with thick cover. Most dogs struggled on this bird. Go bird was a flyer down the shore shot into water/lilly pads. Trap watched the birds go down and immediately locked onto the middle bird and I once tried to have him come around for the flyer, he told me clearly he wanted that middle bird. There was no reason to argue with him, it was "the" bird in that series so I let him settle and sent him. Now this was probably the first time ever he's clearly communicated I need this bird and it worked out as he nailed the series and went on to pass. Next two series he was same old Trapper. There is a time and place for selection, regardless of a perceived definition of what it is. Handling is an art. Reading dogs is an art. Knowing the dog your working with is priceless. When i attended the Rorem seminar he talked about Ideal Selection and two things stuck in my head as he talked about it.

    1. It takes a very good dog to consistently succeed at Ideal Selection. They have to be a great marker, calm, confident, and wise.
    2. It takes an experienced handler to know when not to get in the way of a dog capable of Ideal Marking. In the rare dogs that can do this, handlers typically muck it up trying to follow traditional perceived handling methods brought on by rigid thinking of how things should be done.

    As Susan stated, you can debate the definition of what secondary selection is, at the end of the day you have to know your dog, know its strength/weaknesses and know what your game plan is for running the test in front of you. Call it what you want....

    /Paul
    At which Field Trials did Trap demonstrate his marking skills and you exhibit your prowess at reading and handling a dog?
    Competition does not build character - It reveals it.

    Home of:
    FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie (2003 NARC Finalist)
    FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker Power
    FC/AFC Freeridin Smooth Operator
    FC/AFC Freeridin Vampire Slayer (2007 NARC Finalist)
    AFC Freeridin Maserati (Double Header Winner)

    www.freeridinretrievers.com

  3. #43
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,343

    Default

    What happens when you run a venue where the Judges can and do dictate order of pick up?

    They may tell you in the briefing that the last bird down , is stone dead in the decoys, but, the second bird thrown in the multiple mark, was a crippled bird, and you must pick it up first.

    So, dont those Dogs have to have a very good understanding of "selection" and be very compliant about which bird the handler MAY demand the dog to retrieve?

    I suppose you call this "Primary" selection.


    A dog that is consistently trained to pick up the next shortest bird after the LBD on a very regular basis,, tell me what is the Handler and dog selecting.

    Isnt that "Secondary" selection then, just a consistent routine?


    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  4. #44
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,343

    Default

    Why dont we just call the act of the handler making the decision of what bird to pick up,,,,, "Selection",, and leave the confusing adjective,, primary, secondary and Ideal (Which makes you think that's the "Best") off?
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  5. #45
    Senior Member Pals's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,688

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    At which Field Trials did Trap demonstrate his marking skills and you exhibit your prowess at reading and handling a dog?

    Either you need new glasses or you are purposely calling out Paul. No where did he say "trials". What he wrote is clear and concise. I find this interesting as you have stated before that this kind of behavior is not necessary. I agree its not. /paul had always been forthcoming about what games he plays and he certainly doesn't look down on people that don't run trials. He may be a smart ass, but he is not an elitist snob. Which does not serve our sport at all.

  6. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cape Girardeau Mo.
    Posts
    1,365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Why dont we just call the act of the handler making the decision of what bird to pick up,,,,, "Selection",, and leave the confusing adjective,, primary, secondary and Ideal (Which makes you think that's the "Best") off?
    This is the reason we ( they ) don't do it that way .......It has none thing to do with which is the best way to do it ...It's all about everyone being on the same page so to speak...Steve S
    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post

    Ted, I also included the words "conveying a thought " Isn't that what you are trying to do..? I understand the need(desire) for all retriever people to have the same meaning attached to all terms and words used in communication so there is no confusion in the communication process...We all form the same picture in our minds....I'm just saying secondary means second choice....Steve S


    If you want to simplify communication, you comply with convention and accept traditional meaning to terms.
    If you want to complicate communication, you buck convention and create new meanings for traditional terms.
    You are free to use the term "secondary selection" however you choose. However, your use is contrary to how most people in the sport use it.

    Ted
    Last edited by steve schreiner; 09-08-2013 at 09:09 PM.
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  7. #47
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Mohawk Valley
    Posts
    8,673

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    At which Field Trials did Trap demonstrate his marking skills and you exhibit your prowess at reading and handling a dog?
    well without getting into details this particular dog has been plagued with a shoulder injury knocking him out for a year when he was almost 2, got salmon poisoning which about killed him and took him out for a major portion of a year and was also bit by a rattlesnake which again took him out during a major portion of a trial season. At this point this dog has shown me more guts, courage and heart than most people I know. However don't kid yourself, the dog has finished in the quals he was entered in and holds his own. My post was on topic. Your's is an example of the snobby elitist attitude you continue to display in most of your posts. Since you bring it up, I do mostly run HT's and train HT dogs. You should not be so quick to assume I've never ran or handled FT's. Opens included. Your more than welcome to come train or watch me handle a dog anytime. How about you tell us about your handling prowess recently when your aging FC went out due to handler errors on the blinds?

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  8. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Illinois Wisconsin border
    Posts
    935

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Most of the instructional materials use jargon. If one doesn't understand the jargon, one cannot learn the lesson that is presented in them. Hence, the OP's question. She did not understand the discussion about bird selection strategies because she did not understand the jargon.

    I thought the definition of secondary selection was standard, so this has been a great thread as I have learned that it is not!

    Cart before the horse regards...
    Even changes from region to region. I have been doing drills for years that I don't know what they are called, someone puts A tag on them. Didn't know what a W drill was, called it a split drill and did it for 30 years as a split drill. Just one example.
    Earl Dillow

  9. #49
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    7,143

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    well without getting into details this particular dog has been plagued with a shoulder injury knocking him out for a year when he was almost 2, got salmon poisoning which about killed him and took him out for a major portion of a year and was also bit by a rattlesnake which again took him out during a major portion of a trial season. At this point this dog has shown me more guts, courage and heart than most people I know. However don't kid yourself, the dog has finished in the quals he was entered in and holds his own. My post was on topic. Your's is an example of the snobby elitist attitude you continue to display in most of your posts. Since you bring it up, I do mostly run HT's and train HT dogs. You should not be so quick to assume I've never ran or handled FT's. Opens included. Your more than welcome to come train or watch me handle a dog anytime. How about you tell us about your handling prowess recently when your aging FC went out due to handler errors on the blinds?

    /Paul
    Yeah, but can you read a dog?
    Bill Davis

  10. #50
    Senior Member roseberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    North Alabama
    Posts
    2,124

    Default

    if /paul posts a thoughtful and constructive answer on his first post and is ornery on his second post......is he a "secondary a-hole"? if he waits until his third post to be mean, is he an "ideal a-hole"?

    if ted gives meaningful insight on his first post and waits until his second post to look down his nose on a hunt tester.....is he a "secondary snob"? if ted................you know the rest.

    rtf cracks me up!

    note:
    i would train with paul, he is not an a-hole.
    i would train with ted, he is not a snob and has helped me personally.
    i would train with kip, i don't see how but i guess he thinks i am a know it all?
    Last edited by roseberry; 09-08-2013 at 10:07 PM.
    john mccallie

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •