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Thread: Please define secondary selection

  1. #61
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    [FONT=garamond][SIZE=4]A few points:

    1. A handler has the ability to influence what bird the dog sets up for upon returning on the mat. Many times when a handler says "My dog wanted that bird" what they are saying is I didn't act decisively in influencing what bird to retrieve next.
    That is a very good point. I have been working more on getting that 'first look'. When the dog comes back with a bird, I want him to look out at the bird that I want him to get first thing--before I take the bird or do anything else. It does minimize the times when the dog appears to want to do something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    The problem is once a dog has gone long, getting them to go short is very difficult. Pull next shortest bird out then go long. Ideal selection takes a very good dog, comfortable and relaxed on the line and excellent marker.

    /Paul
    I disagree, It doesn't require an excellent marker, it requires a dog that can count and requires a good trainer and high standards. Any mutt worth trialing can be taught to ideal select, with the proper training. I wouldn't enter a dog in a Q unless it had learned secondary selection, and even understand what Dr. Ed said "hybrid selection" or "ideal". It's really fundamental for field trial retrievers and the ones with FC AFC in front of their name have mastered selection. If every dog is crashing and burning picking birds up in a certain order, you need the tool of selection....sometimes you look like a hero and sometimes you look like a jackwagon but you have to put your marbles on the table and select a bird sometimes
    Last edited by jeff evans; 09-09-2013 at 09:20 PM.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff evans View Post

    Any mutt worth trialing can be taught to ideal select, with the proper training.

    I disagree


    Quote Originally Posted by jeff evans View Post
    It's really fundamental for field trial retrievers and the ones with FC AFC in front of their name have mastered selection.

    If by this, you mean secondary selection, I agree.
    If by this, you mean ideal selection, I disagree.
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    Over the years I had the opportunity to train with some folks who did quite well with their dogs. To quote the late Mike Greene "get the cripples out of the way before you go after the tough ones", which is a different way of saying shortest bird next in line, irrespective of order thrown. I also had the privilege of day training with one of the greats in this sport for over 20 years, all you had to do was watch the examples in training to see what worked well.

    The only time I believe you can have a problem is when it's difficult for the dog to recognize that there is a short bird next to be taken out of order. & that happens, then you have to prove your worth as a handler.
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    Senior Member Rnd's Avatar
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    So after all this discussion. Does anybody train for "Ideal" selection as Dave describes??

    eg; In training making the dog pick up the shortest bird last.......So that in a trial they can use "Ideal" selection vs Secondary????

    Or do the you train with "Secondary" selection as your default?


    This is an honest question. When I left the game it was "secondary" selection all the way. We trained that way and handled that way....

    Has anything changed???


    Curious, Randy
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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rnd View Post
    So after all this discussion. Does anybody train for "Ideal" selection as Dave describes??

    eg; In training making the dog pick up the shortest bird last.......So that in a trial they can use "Ideal" selection vs Secondary????

    Or do the you train with "Secondary" selection as your default?


    This is an honest question. When I left the game it was "secondary" selection all the way. We trained that way and handled that way....

    Has anything changed???




    Curious, Randy
    No, I think most people train the way you did, secondary selection as the default. We occasionally do a delayed triple, or pull off a double to run a blind to spice things up.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff evans View Post
    I disagree, It doesn't require an excellent marker, it requires a dog that can count and requires a good trainer and high standards. Any mutt worth trialing can be taught to ideal select, with the proper training. I wouldn't enter a dog in a Q unless it had learned secondary selection, and even understand what Dr. Ed said "hybrid selection" or "ideal". It's really fundamental for field trial retrievers and the ones with FC AFC in front of their name have mastered selection. If every dog is crashing and burning picking birds up in a certain order, you need the tool of selection....sometimes you look like a hero and sometimes you look like a jackwagon but you have to put your marbles on the table and select a bird sometimes
    Not sure what you disagree with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    Over the years I had the opportunity to train with some folks who did quite well with their dogs. To quote the late Mike Greene "get the cripples out of the way before you go after the tough ones", which is a different way of saying shortest bird next in line, irrespective of order thrown. I also had the privilege of day training with one of the greats in this sport for over 20 years, all you had to do was watch the examples in training to see what worked well.

    The only time I believe you can have a problem is when it's difficult for the dog to recognize that there is a short bird next to be taken out of order. & that happens, then you have to prove your worth as a handler.
    Shows the difference in hunting and trialing or "an ordinary day's shoot". In hunting, the cripples are the tough ones... (If you care about losing them). Most often, in a hunting situation the stone dead birds will be the closest ones and the cripples will be the furthest away. So, when running a poison bird blind while hunting, you're running the dog past a dead bird to get a cripple. (At least in my experience, anyway).

    Another good reason for this type of training. Go to whatever bird you are sent for, long or short. It's a thing of beauty when they do it.
    Bill Davis

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    Over the years I had the opportunity to train with some folks who did quite well with their dogs. To quote the late Mike Greene "get the cripples out of the way before you go after the tough ones", which is a different way of saying shortest bird next in line, irrespective of order thrown. I also had the privilege of day training with one of the greats in this sport for over 20 years, all you had to do was watch the examples in training to see what worked well.

    The only time I believe you can have a problem is when it's difficult for the dog to recognize that there is a short bird next to be taken out of order. & that happens, then you have to prove your worth as a handler.
    I would disagree with your statement wherein it implies that the shorter bird is not the tougher bird. That frequently is NOT the case i.e. A short retired in cover in front of a long standout {flyer?} bird with multiple gunners

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff evans View Post
    I disagree, It doesn't require an excellent marker, it requires a dog that can count and requires a good trainer and high standards. Any mutt worth trialing can be taught to ideal select, with the proper training. I wouldn't enter a dog in a Q unless it had learned secondary selection, and even understand what Dr. Ed said "hybrid selection" or "ideal". It's really fundamental for field trial retrievers and the ones with FC AFC in front of their name have mastered selection. If every dog is crashing and burning picking birds up in a certain order, you need the tool of selection....sometimes you look like a hero and sometimes you look like a jackwagon but you have to put your marbles on the table and select a bird sometimes
    I agree with this ....It isn't the marking so much as the dog that will give his/her will over to the handler ....The dog has to have the memory to pick them up but the ability of the handler to teach the dog to take a back seat on the team is the hard part...Dogs can be very head strong in this area...This is the reason primary selection has been given up by most.....Steve S
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