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Thread: Detroit Free press replies to Rush Limbaugh's distortions.

  1. #21
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntClub View Post
    Ummm, I think you got that backwards. I know you've heard that one.
    Ford was certainly an interesting character. He did set up plants in Soviet Union plants in the Soviet Union in 1929 at the behest of Joe Stalin. That plant continues to manufacture under the GAZ badge. So much for his distrust of communism.

    Ford had a belief in welfare capitalism. He believed if he paid the workers well they would buy his product. He resisted unions not because they represented socialism but they were not part of what he believed was best for the workers. When he did sign a union contract in 1941 ( after his wife, Clara, threatened to divorce him if he didn't sign the contract), his terms were the most generous at the time. his dark side was the use of Harry Bennet thugs to intimidate, spy on and control his workers.
    Zeus

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    George Romney must have been pretty incompetent for his policies to take almost 50 years to make Detroit fail. We should be blaming our countries current problems on the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. Oh Johnson did get Medicare passed and all the extras which came along. Even (D) John Dingell's, from Michigan, prize child the supplemental drug program. He had been trying to pass it since the early 70's and finally in 2004 the Rino's and Bush threw him the bone.

    Now you can always find a school board member, from the opposite party, to try and blame the collapse of a city or town. However, the reality is the definition of insanity. (Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.) This is someone's else definition.

  3. #23
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampcollielover View Post
    I worked in manufacturing for Fortune 500 and a Global 50 company over the last 30 years. over 20 years ago American and most large foreign companies stopped offering "Pensions". They all went to 401K which they typically matched 50 - 100% of the first 6% you saved. This was further limited by Government where if you made a certain amount you were limited as to how much you could put into your 401K. Unlike most unions Pensions are a thing of the past, as companies cannot support the costs associated with the cost. Additionally, our medical was never more than 50% covered by these companies. The point of all this it to contrast the "norms in America" compared to what you noted above. The unions continue to kill the companies they work for by asking for benefits that are outside of the 'normal' range. as far as salary levels, if you take the military salaries out of the Government payroll calculations, you will see that union workers overall make more than non union counterparts. Especially if you compare job requirements and pay grades.....they are grossly overpaid compared to the norms in the country....why do you think governments, county, city, state, and federal are going broke?
    I don't know how things go in your part of the country, but I can tell you that we did research on the local wage scales before we went into negotiations. Public employees were always significantly less-- usually 20% less. We never were able to reach parity with the private sector. But, we could on occasion narrow the gap. We were able to recruit some experienced personnel from other employers as a result. We also did research on the pot available for compensation. Often you would here the employer's rep complaining how broke they were when in fact they were sitting on a megastash.
    Zeus

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampcollielover View Post
    I smell a "Union" member! Both the Gov and Mayor were dealing with Democratic minorities in the governmental organizations that they ran! All of the things you mentioned contributed to the failures n Detroit. But with the size of the Auto Industries and the number of Union employees that lived in and near to Detroit, none of the members or union leaders offered any monitory help to the city that was in trouble....neither did the leaders at GM or any of the other automakers, even after the President filled their retirement funds with Federal Tax Payers money (from guys like me). They all sit on their hands and let the city fail! They all own it.....! Unions are one for all and all for one.....as long as you are in the Union....to heck with your neighbors.
    Not hardly. It's the union's greed which almost killed an industry.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Storts View Post
    George Romney must have been pretty incompetent for his policies to take almost 50 years to make Detroit fail. We should be blaming our countries current problems on the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. Oh Johnson did get Medicare passed and all the extras which came along. Even (D) John Dingell's, from Michigan, prize child the supplemental drug program. He had been trying to pass it since the early 70's and finally in 2004 the Rino's and Bush threw him the bone.

    Now you can always find a school board member, from the opposite party, to try and blame the collapse of a city or town. However, the reality is the definition of insanity. (Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.) This is someone's else definition.
    I entered a counter argument to Limbaugh's unsupported assertion. But if you'll note in my comments the blame lies on both sides of the political fence. The collapse happened under Republican watch and it was perpetuated by subsequent administrations of the various party regimes. That collapse didn't just happen, but has been an ongoing train wreck for the half century.
    Last edited by zeus3925; 09-09-2013 at 04:50 PM.
    Zeus

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    I entered a counter argument to Limbaugh's unsupported assertion. But if you'll note in my comments the blame lies on both sides of the political fence. The collapse happened under Republican watch and it was perpetuated by subsequent administrations of the various party regimes. That collapse didn't just happen, but has been an ongoing train wreck for the half century.
    Okay, but why are all the current issues with our country being blamed on Bush. He was a president just 5 years ago.

    Likely, if action is taken against Syria, he will be blamed for not taking action quicker against Iraq. Thus, allowing all their chemical weapons escape to Syria before the invasion. It will always be his fault.
    Last edited by Dan Storts; 09-09-2013 at 11:29 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Storts View Post
    Okay, but why is all the current issues with are country being blamed on Bush. He was a president just 5 years ago.

    Likely, if action is taken against Syria, he will be blamed for not taking action quicker against Iraq. Thus, allowing all their chemical weapons escape to Syria before the invasion. It will always be his fault.
    Huh????????
    Zeus

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    Government workers as a whole make salaries significantly lower than their counterparts in private industry. There has to be something in place to enable governments to recruit competent workers competitively with private companies.
    In 1964 I was sitting in a 4B's restaurant in Missoula MT eating breakfast with my wife & our then young family. The person who had left the table had left the front section of a WSJ & I read the section that had the quick notes in the center of the front page. One of those was about paying government folks better to attract those competents that you talk of. As with all things the law of unintended consequences took over (or did it) & we as citizens end up with the same hacks only they are now paid much better .

    A study was done recently in WA showing the private sector making in wages & benny's about 60% of what the public sector does. As it is in MN, you have your bright folks in the HC sector, we own STJ, & we have our bright folks in the Aircraft, Biotech & Technology industries, none of whom come cheap.

    As a retiree from Boeing, I got 1 1/4 percent of my last five years average salary times the number of good years that I was employed. There is no extra for OT, or additional bumps in wages as is the case in the public sector who gets 2% of their last 2 years salary, all OT counts & any bumps caused by cashing in SL & Vacation time. While I get no COLA the public employee receives an annual COLA & access to other goodies not available to the private sector. My retirement check is the same today as it was 20 years ago & if you look at it in a different manner, I had to do a lot of value added work to enable the company to continue that largesse, however paltry. Had we not owned a successful business & had a little success investing we would be living with the trailer trash rather than where we live.

    While it varies from state to state & the feds are not overly generous to their flunkies on the wage end, there never seems to be a shortage of unqualified to fill the government jobs . I did a lot of negotiating on the School Board & am familiar with the ability of unions to find someone who will put their John Henry on a study, for the right price, to prove an invalid point. Example: there are not enough kids to fill any classroom staffed by someone competent in the subject matter & capable of presenting same, not something you'll hear in negotiations.
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    That's what happens when you talk to Siri. R's become are or our.

    We will just need to wait and see how the media reports the events of Syria. This is if we would take some type of action.

  10. #30
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    In 1964 I was sitting in a 4B's restaurant in Missoula MT eating breakfast with my wife & our then young family. The person who had left the table had left the front section of a WSJ & I read the section that had the quick notes in the center of the front page. One of those was about paying government folks better to attract those competents that you talk of. As with all things the law of unintended consequences took over (or did it) & we as citizens end up with the same hacks only they are now paid much better .

    A study was done recently in WA showing the private sector making in wages & benny's about 60% of what the public sector does. As it is in MN, you have your bright folks in the HC sector, we own STJ, & we have our bright folks in the Aircraft, Biotech & Technology industries, none of whom come cheap.

    As a retiree from Boeing, I got 1 1/4 percent of my last five years average salary times the number of good years that I was employed. There is no extra for OT, or additional bumps in wages as is the case in the public sector who gets 2% of their last 2 years salary, all OT counts & any bumps caused by cashing in SL & Vacation time. While I get no COLA the public employee receives an annual COLA & access to other goodies not available to the private sector. My retirement check is the same today as it was 20 years ago & if you look at it in a different manner, I had to do a lot of value added work to enable the company to continue that largesse, however paltry. Had we not owned a successful business & had a little success investing we would be living with the trailer trash rather than where we live.

    While it varies from state to state & the feds are not overly generous to their flunkies on the wage end, there never seems to be a shortage of unqualified to fill the government jobs . I did a lot of negotiating on the School Board & am familiar with the ability of unions to find someone who will put their John Henry on a study, for the right price, to prove an invalid point. Example: there are not enough kids to fill any classroom staffed by someone competent in the subject matter & capable of presenting same, not something you'll hear in negotiations.
    We used Chamber data and state wage surveys that were available.

    Marv I take issue with your assertion that government employees are incompetent. The vast majority are skilled and competent. I would stack up our snowplow drivers against any on our wind blown prairie land. Our plow jocks were recognized as the best in the state.

    I worked as a cartographer for a well known company in the business. Yet our county cartographers were producing product far superior to any the private company produced. Other units of government were contracting with the county as we could do it better and cheaper.

    None of our governmental pension funds were negotiable as they are set by the state legislatures.

    I am sorry to hear that Boeing covered your pension so meagerly, but maybe you should have formed a union when you had a chance. ( And maybe I should have moved to the State of Washington to cash in, eh?)
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

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