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Thread: Puppy Breeders selling online

  1. #21
    Senior Member firehouselabs's Avatar
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    For those with 3 and under females - you better not have an unspayed female barn cat. The rules say breeding females with that lovely "and/or" statement which would mean that it is the aggregate of females on the property.
    Example:
    You have 3 female dogs. One of which had pups 5 months ago and you have one of those pesky "leftovers" that everyone wants to have. One of the other females is bred already and the last one should be coming into heat soon, for the last time before she retires and you have a well thought out plan for an awesome litter. Someone calls from clear across the country saying that they would love to have that older pup since it is already housebroke and you have been working with it daily on its obedience. Since its a 15 hour trip one way and the buyer can't get the time off, he wants you to ship said pup using Katie Beckers awesome business "Move the Dog Transport". The money is wired, the trip is scheduled, and your daughter comes into the house with a tiny kitten- one of a litter of six that your barn cat had two weeks ago and hid in the loft.
    Now what? Legally you have 4 breeding "FEMALES" (and that isn't even including your wife ) on site and you are selling a pup sight unseen other than via photos or videos over the internet. I suppose you could disavow owning the cat, but you had better hope that your darling daughter is no where around, or said cat either, when the inspectors come by. I think that if you had some a$$hat dem- I mean bureaucrat for an inspector, you would have a very hard time explaining yourself even if were a stray/feral or neighbors cat!
    Instead of cat, insert Gerbil, fish?, rabbit, pet mice, etc... They included domesticated farm animals...does this mean chickens? So if you have a flock of chickens or a pair of ornamental ducks, would this too put you over the limit? How many here have more than one breed? I have 3 labs and a cocker. All females. I have both bought and shipped pups and adults via ground and air without the buyer seeing them a head of time. I had the breeder choose my pups for me based on the criteria I gave, and I got what I asked for.
    Granted, for now anyway, since I have "working" dogs I am exempt, how long before the wording gets "tweaked" again to change that part of the deal? All these folks need is that foot in the door, and they aren't using battering rams to get it. They play on peoples emotions and sense to do whats right and exploit it and twist it to fit their needs. Heck, look at our government as a whole. No one notices a little change here, a little change there, until we are left standing there with shell shocked looks on our faces and wondering how we got to this point.
    Raina Anderson WWW.FIREHOUSELABS.COM

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  2. #22
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    Terry-

    That was the proposed rule. There have been several changes in the past year. See:

    FAQ: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/newsroom/2...final_rule.pdf

    Final Rule: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/newsroom/2..._2011-2003.pdf
    Eric

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  3. #23
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    Raina-

    It could be even worse. That long distance phone call wanting to buy the spare pup could very well be the USDA checking on your sales methods. They said today that blind phone calls to breeders would be one method used to find people who should be licensed and are not.

    About a year ago there was a notice published in the procurement announcements that the USDA was in the market for data mining software. The notice was withdrawn about the time they realized that it was going top take a year to get the new rule out. At one point today I swear I heard the USDA folks let slip that they were going to datamine for potential license violations too.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
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  4. #24
    Senior Member frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firehouselabs View Post
    For those with 3 and under females - you better not have an unspayed female barn cat. The rules say breeding females with that lovely "and/or" statement which would mean that it is the aggregate of females on the property.
    Example:
    You have 3 female dogs. One of which had pups 5 months ago and you have one of those pesky "leftovers" that everyone wants to have. One of the other females is bred already and the last one should be coming into heat soon, for the last time before she retires and you have a well thought out plan for an awesome litter. Someone calls from clear across the country saying that they would love to have that older pup since it is already housebroke and you have been working with it daily on its obedience. Since its a 15 hour trip one way and the buyer can't get the time off, he wants you to ship said pup using Katie Beckers awesome business "Move the Dog Transport". The money is wired, the trip is scheduled, and your daughter comes into the house with a tiny kitten- one of a litter of six that your barn cat had two weeks ago and hid in the loft.
    Now what? Legally you have 4 breeding "FEMALES" (and that isn't even including your wife ) on site and you are selling a pup sight unseen other than via photos or videos over the internet. I suppose you could disavow owning the cat, but you had better hope that your darling daughter is no where around, or said cat either, when the inspectors come by. I think that if you had some a$$hat dem- I mean bureaucrat for an inspector, you would have a very hard time explaining yourself even if were a stray/feral or neighbors cat!
    Instead of cat, insert Gerbil, fish?, rabbit, pet mice, etc... They included domesticated farm animals...does this mean chickens? So if you have a flock of chickens or a pair of ornamental ducks, would this too put you over the limit? How many here have more than one breed? I have 3 labs and a cocker. All females. I have both bought and shipped pups and adults via ground and air without the buyer seeing them a head of time. I had the breeder choose my pups for me based on the criteria I gave, and I got what I asked for.
    Granted, for now anyway, since I have "working" dogs I am exempt, how long before the wording gets "tweaked" again to change that part of the deal? All these folks need is that foot in the door, and they aren't using battering rams to get it. They play on peoples emotions and sense to do whats right and exploit it and twist it to fit their needs. Heck, look at our government as a whole. No one notices a little change here, a little change there, until we are left standing there with shell shocked looks on our faces and wondering how we got to this point.
    And there you have it.. HSUS/PETA agenda all along.. use whatever means possible to brainwash the public into grouping breeders into the same classification. HSUS/PETA lobby convinced the federal government to do their dirty work for them. And their campaign still continues against licensed USDA breeders.
    Last edited by frontier; 09-10-2013 at 03:13 PM.
    Terrie Tomlinson
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  5. #25
    Senior Member windycanyon's Avatar
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    So let me get this straight. As long as you do not ship puppies (premises unseen), the number of breeding females doesn't matter other than what your local ordinances call for.
    And as long as a buyer comes in person to your "store" (lol), you are a retailer, and will be exempt from this license.
    Correct?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Nicole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    So let me get this straight. As long as you do not ship puppies (premises unseen), the number of breeding females doesn't matter other than what your local ordinances call for.
    And as long as a buyer comes in person to your "store" (lol), you are a retailer, and will be exempt from this license.
    Correct?
    That's my understanding. And if that's the case, I don't see a problem outside of getting a foot in the door.

  7. #27
    Senior Member roseberry's Avatar
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    i think it's time to organize the "million bitch march" and cover d.c. in doggie poo!
    john mccallie

  8. #28
    Senior Member frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
    So let me get this straight. As long as you do not ship puppies (premises unseen), the number of breeding females doesn't matter other than what your local ordinances call for.
    And as long as a buyer comes in person to your "store" (lol), you are a retailer, and will be exempt from this license.
    Correct?

    So according to the FAQ:
    Under the final rule, what constitutes a breeding female?
    A.
    Only female animals with the capacity to breed are considered “breeding females.” Females that an APHIS inspector decides cannot breed due to age, infirmity,illness, or other issues are not considered “breeding females.”

    Leaves a significant amount of power with an APHIS inspector to make a determination whether a dog is considered a "breeding female" which is a big concern for me.

    And what takes precidence regarding number of intact females? State breeder regulations or federal? Does federal licensing now make one subject to state commerical breeder licensing even though the number of intact females are different?


    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/newsroom/2...final_rule.pdf

    Last edited by frontier; 09-10-2013 at 04:54 PM.
    Terrie Tomlinson
    Frontier Retrievers
    HR Five Star Winning Sue SH
    Young Guns: Frontier's True Grit With a Cause "Rooster" and Frontier's Gossip Girl With A Cause "Gabby"
    Boykin Spaniels: Max, Scarlet, Rummy, Jewels, Bella, Molly, and Piper

    In Memory:
    HRCH Frontier's Cherokee Rebel MH (5-9-2000 to 12-6-2011)
    Moonstone's Little Girl Found MH (3-20-1998 to 5-2-2008)
    Calebri's Take the Money and Run JH (3-3-2008 to 6-20-2012)

  9. #29
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    Wonder about selling dogs to Taiwan?????

  10. #30
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