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Puppy Breeders selling online

14K views 49 replies 23 participants last post by  frontier 
#1 ·
You were warned. USDA/APHIS adopts rule on home breeding of dogs.

More info as it is available.

I haven't any effective date yet.

----- Forwarded Message -----

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/usda-cracks-internet-pet-sales-20207528

USDA Cracks Down on Internet Pet Sales

WASHINGTON September 10, 2013 (AP)
By MARY CLARE JALONICK Associated Press

The Agriculture Department is cracking down on dog breeders who sell puppies over the Internet with new regulations that will force them to apply for federal licenses.

The rules announced Tuesday would subject dog owners who breed more than four females and sell the puppies online, by mail or over the phone to the same oversight faced by wholesale animal breeders.

Many breeders who run their businesses online have skirted federal oversight by classifying themselves as retail pet stores, which are exempt from licensing requirements. Commercial pet stores aren't required to have licenses because buyers can see the animals before they buy them and decide whether they appear healthy and cared for. But that's not the case when buying over the Internet.

The idea behind the new rules, says USDA's Kevin Shea, is that either government inspectors or buyers see the animals with their own eyes before they are sold.

Shea, administrator of the USDA's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, says the agency is responding to a 2010 USDA inspector general's report that uncovered grisly conditions at so-called "puppy mills" around the country. The report recommended that the department tighten the animal welfare laws — written more than four decades ago, long before the advent of the Internet — to cut down on unscrupulous breeders.

In addition to finding dirty, bug-infested conditions at many breeding facilities, inspectors cited numerous reports of buyers who received animals who were sick or dying.

The new rules, first proposed last year, would ensure that most people who sell pets over the Internet, by phone or mail order can no longer do so sight-unseen. Sellers either must open their doors to the public so buyers can see the animals before they purchase them, or obtain a license and be subject to inspections by the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service.

The rules are targeted to dog breeders but could affect breeders of other animals too. The Agriculture Department estimates that up to 4,640 dog breeders could be affected by the rule, along with about 325 cat breeders and up to 75 rabbit breeders.

Small-size breeders have lobbied against the changes, saying the rules could regulate them out of business. USDA's Shea says the department set the minimum of four breeding females to ensure that those smaller sellers would be able to continue offering puppies.

"People who have generally been thought of as 'hobby breeders' continue to be exempt," Shea said.

Shea said the licenses will cost $750 or less and complying with the USDA regulations should only be expensive for breeders who aren't already ensuring their animals have adequate housing and medical care.

———

Find Mary Clare Jalonick on Twitter at http://twitter.com/mcjalonick
 
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#2 ·
#3 ·
Wow. I submitted comments when they were invited; guess they didn't take MY advice!

This is going to hurt some of our top people, breeders who really know the breed and control a lot of bitches through networking. I can only hope that the licensing requirements don't match those of current USDA wholesale breeders, requiring separate kennel buildings with strict engineering standards that would be impossible for most people because of zoning laws.

They say it won't be difficult or expensive to comply; we'll see.

Amy Dahl
 
#5 · (Edited)
Wow. I submitted comments when they were invited; guess they didn't take MY advice!

This is going to hurt some of our top people, breeders who really know the breed and control a lot of bitches through networking. I can only hope that the licensing requirements don't match those of current USDA wholesale breeders, requiring separate kennel buildings with strict engineering standards that would be impossible for most people because of zoning laws.

They say it won't be difficult or expensive to comply; we'll see.

Amy Dahl
The federal government did not listen to over 70,000 other concerned individuals who wrote and signed AKC petitions. Over Four breeding females puts you under this regulation. The initial language was ambiguous on what age is a breeding female. I routinely keep one to two pups annually until two years old until all health clearances can be done and I can evaluate whether the females meet my high standards for future breeding. I could be impacted simply by the age of my younger girls by definition or simply by shipping one pup or even by allowing one pup to be transported via ground transport service. And I only breed 1-2 litters annually.
 
#7 · (Edited)
TODAY 12:45 PM eastern Conference call , sign up is easy


From: Klingel, Meghan K - APHIS

Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 3:29 PM
Subject: APHIS Animal Welfare Act Regulatory Update Call

Good afternoon:

Please join APHIS’ Administrator Kevin Shea on a conference call tomorrow, September 10, at 12:45 p.m. EDT for an important Animal Welfare Act regulatory update.

In order to participate on tomorrow’s call, you will need to register in advance. Please click on the link below to provide your name, organization, and email address. Once you’ve submitted your information, you will promptly receive an email that includes the call-in number and a unique conference code to enter the call. This will allow you to immediately join the call rather than waiting for an operator to connect you.

If you would like to make other colleagues aware of the call, please forward them the link below. To avoid any problems connecting to the call, do not share your unique code. The registration link is active now, and I encourage you to register in advance of the call.

https://customer.accuconference.com/Registration/index.aspx?pkRegQG=1dac17d9-9df5-47e7-871f-2513965c6391

Thank you,
Meghan K. Klingel

Meghan K. Klingel
Acting Advisor for State and Stakeholder Relations
Legislative and Public Affairs
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
U.S. Department of Agriculture
 
#10 ·
Bridget, thanks so much for that link!

I just listened to the call. They said a few things that seem like they might be good.

Breeders/sellers of "working dogs" are exempt
They expect most breeders to need no structural or operational changes (I don't understand how given that this is a *definition* change, so I would think the existing rules for wholesalers would apply, but that's what they said).
Buyers do not have to come to breeder's premises to be exempt, but seller, buyer, and animal must all be in the same place at the same time.

They said will post press release after the call--I couldn't access the site but imagine traffic will slow eventually. Link is http://www.aphis.usda.gov .

Amy Dahl
 
#11 · (Edited)
Is selling on the internet the same as advertising on the internet? Just wondering there are a lot of sites that advertise litters, also many people advertise litters, but do not sell over the internet, buyer might sign up on a list for pick on an upcoming breeding, but the majority of pups are not sent out without buyers coming out to see the litter and pick their pups, and without seller meeting-approving the buyers ;). This seems to go under the radar of this rule, which appears to be protection for people who are charged and sent pups without ever seeing them, the condition they were raised in, or picking their pup. I don't see how many working dog breeders would fall under this rule, as there's so much buyer-seller interaction with working dog breeding. I've flown in to choose a pup, sure distance might prevent many from doing so, but I've never had a seller say NO you cannot come out; might be a red-flag if they did. Heck when I had a litter, I wanted the buyers to come out, buyers have too make it pass the inquisition after all. ;)
 
#14 · (Edited)
Is selling on the internet the same as advertising on the internet? Just wondering there are a lot of sites that advertise litters, also many people advertise litters, but do not sell over the internet, buyer might sign up on a list for pick on an upcoming breeding, but the majority of pups are not sent out without buyers coming out to see the litter and pick their pups, and without seller meeting-approving the buyers ;). This seems to go under the radar of this rule, which appears to be protection for people who are charged and sent pups without ever seeing them, the condition they were raised in, or picking their pup. I don't see how many working dog breeders would fall under this rule, as there's so much buyer-seller interaction with working dog breeding. I've flown in to choose a pup, sure distance might prevent many from doing so, but I've never had a seller say NO you cannot come out; might be a red-flag if they did. Heck when I had a litter, I wanted the buyers to come out, got to check-up on them after all. ;)
What do you base your assumption on that the "majority of pups are not sent out without buyers coming to see the litter"? Just because you may choose to fly or drive to pick out your own puppy, does not mean the majority of buyers choose that option. I've been breeding performance Labradors for almost 30 years, and it's about 50-50 on those clients that live close enough to drive, or opt for the dog to go via airlines or ground transport. I've also been purchasing pups for the same amount of years from reputable breeders, and can count on one hand the times I've driven to pick up my pup versus allowing the breeder who has observed the pups for 8 weeks to make that selection for me.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I am listening to the Q&A now .
4 bitches who are physically able to be bred and become pregnant is the definition of breeding bitch

IF ALL buyers come to see the puppy in person before purchasing you would be exempt. The buyer does not need to come to your home , but the seller and the dog and the buyer all need to be present for the sale. If YOU SHIP any pups (even one)you will need to comply.
They will be answering ads and asking if you will ship to find non compliance

There will be a phone # to call to see if you are compliant. Susan Patterson , a lab breeder who shows, hunt tests and hunts with her dogs asked if her kennel was included and they could not give her an answer on her dual purpose dogs. They said she would need to call.
If you are selling for research, testing, experimentation , exhibition and pets you need to comply , if you sell for hunting, working you do not need to comply.
I am trying to keep up here , so this is not verbatim

If your intent is to sell as a working dog , stock dog or hunting dog and the buyer does not follow through you will not be held liable

end of call
 
#15 ·
There was a conference call today led by APHIS to explain the new rule. There were more questions raised than answers
given.

For example, They stumbled and bumbled about the question of dogs that are used
for hunting and for show. An exhibition dog is covered under the rule whereas a
hunting dog is not. (Aside from the 4 breedable bitches standpoint.) Further,
dogs sold as pets are covered but the breeder of retrievers can sell all dogs as
hunting dogs and not be covered....whether the dog goes hunting or not. We will
see the rise of the hunting chihuahua under this definition.

I believe that if I sell 1 dog overseas without a buyer visit, I will be out of
compliance. While we are working to expand diversity in our small gene pool, per
APHIS we can't do it without becoming Class B dealers.

Rescues are not covered because they meet the buyer ... though in many breed
rescues, the buyer and the foster home may be a continent apart.

Way under estimated the cost of compliance. If I have 4 breeding females and they
live in the house with me, it's going to cost about $35-50,000 to set up a
kennel operation other than just four wire cages. This aside from the issue that
the puppies won't be socialized with the family.

You won't have to meet a buyer at your home. Instead, you can meet at a WalMart
parking lot to sell your dog. Wonder how long that will stand.

I got the distinct impression that the greater share of the 200,000 + comments were either
not read or these guys are just "Invincibly Ignorant."

Rule is to be effective 60 days after publication which may be even tonight.

Eric
 
#16 ·
I've posted the notes I made during the conference call in another thread. Mayhaps Chris can move it.
 
#18 ·
#21 ·
For those with 3 and under females - you better not have an unspayed female barn cat. The rules say breeding females with that lovely "and/or" statement which would mean that it is the aggregate of females on the property.
Example:
You have 3 female dogs. One of which had pups 5 months ago and you have one of those pesky "leftovers" that everyone wants to have. One of the other females is bred already and the last one should be coming into heat soon, for the last time before she retires and you have a well thought out plan for an awesome litter. Someone calls from clear across the country saying that they would love to have that older pup since it is already housebroke and you have been working with it daily on its obedience. Since its a 15 hour trip one way and the buyer can't get the time off, he wants you to ship said pup using Katie Beckers awesome business "Move the Dog Transport". The money is wired, the trip is scheduled, and your daughter comes into the house with a tiny kitten- one of a litter of six that your barn cat had two weeks ago and hid in the loft.
Now what? Legally you have 4 breeding "FEMALES" (and that isn't even including your wife:) ) on site and you are selling a pup sight unseen other than via photos or videos over the internet. I suppose you could disavow owning the cat, but you had better hope that your darling daughter is no where around, or said cat either, when the inspectors come by. I think that if you had some a$$hat dem- I mean bureaucrat for an inspector, you would have a very hard time explaining yourself even if were a stray/feral or neighbors cat!
Instead of cat, insert Gerbil, fish?, rabbit, pet mice, etc... They included domesticated farm animals...does this mean chickens? So if you have a flock of chickens or a pair of ornamental ducks, would this too put you over the limit? How many here have more than one breed? I have 3 labs and a cocker. All females. I have both bought and shipped pups and adults via ground and air without the buyer seeing them a head of time. I had the breeder choose my pups for me based on the criteria I gave, and I got what I asked for.
Granted, for now anyway, since I have "working" dogs I am exempt, how long before the wording gets "tweaked" again to change that part of the deal? All these folks need is that foot in the door, and they aren't using battering rams to get it. They play on peoples emotions and sense to do whats right and exploit it and twist it to fit their needs. Heck, look at our government as a whole. No one notices a little change here, a little change there, until we are left standing there with shell shocked looks on our faces and wondering how we got to this point.
 
#24 · (Edited)
For those with 3 and under females - you better not have an unspayed female barn cat. The rules say breeding females with that lovely "and/or" statement which would mean that it is the aggregate of females on the property.
Example:
You have 3 female dogs. One of which had pups 5 months ago and you have one of those pesky "leftovers" that everyone wants to have. One of the other females is bred already and the last one should be coming into heat soon, for the last time before she retires and you have a well thought out plan for an awesome litter. Someone calls from clear across the country saying that they would love to have that older pup since it is already housebroke and you have been working with it daily on its obedience. Since its a 15 hour trip one way and the buyer can't get the time off, he wants you to ship said pup using Katie Beckers awesome business "Move the Dog Transport". The money is wired, the trip is scheduled, and your daughter comes into the house with a tiny kitten- one of a litter of six that your barn cat had two weeks ago and hid in the loft.
Now what? Legally you have 4 breeding "FEMALES" (and that isn't even including your wife:) ) on site and you are selling a pup sight unseen other than via photos or videos over the internet. I suppose you could disavow owning the cat, but you had better hope that your darling daughter is no where around, or said cat either, when the inspectors come by. I think that if you had some a$$hat dem- I mean bureaucrat for an inspector, you would have a very hard time explaining yourself even if were a stray/feral or neighbors cat!
Instead of cat, insert Gerbil, fish?, rabbit, pet mice, etc... They included domesticated farm animals...does this mean chickens? So if you have a flock of chickens or a pair of ornamental ducks, would this too put you over the limit? How many here have more than one breed? I have 3 labs and a cocker. All females. I have both bought and shipped pups and adults via ground and air without the buyer seeing them a head of time. I had the breeder choose my pups for me based on the criteria I gave, and I got what I asked for.
Granted, for now anyway, since I have "working" dogs I am exempt, how long before the wording gets "tweaked" again to change that part of the deal? All these folks need is that foot in the door, and they aren't using battering rams to get it. They play on peoples emotions and sense to do whats right and exploit it and twist it to fit their needs. Heck, look at our government as a whole. No one notices a little change here, a little change there, until we are left standing there with shell shocked looks on our faces and wondering how we got to this point.
And there you have it.. HSUS/PETA agenda all along.. use whatever means possible to brainwash the public into grouping breeders into the same classification. HSUS/PETA lobby convinced the federal government to do their dirty work for them. And their campaign still continues against licensed USDA breeders.
 
#22 ·
#23 ·
Raina-

It could be even worse. That long distance phone call wanting to buy the spare pup could very well be the USDA checking on your sales methods. They said today that blind phone calls to breeders would be one method used to find people who should be licensed and are not.

About a year ago there was a notice published in the procurement announcements that the USDA was in the market for data mining software. The notice was withdrawn about the time they realized that it was going top take a year to get the new rule out. At one point today I swear I heard the USDA folks let slip that they were going to datamine for potential license violations too.
 
#25 ·
So let me get this straight. As long as you do not ship puppies (premises unseen), the number of breeding females doesn't matter other than what your local ordinances call for.
And as long as a buyer comes in person to your "store" (lol), you are a retailer, and will be exempt from this license.
Correct?
 
#30 ·
#33 ·
#34 ·
#35 ·
However, this rule will only affect those dog breeders who sell dogs as pets, not for
hunting, security, breeding, or other purposes;
This is the quote from the article, glad to be in the hunting dog department
 
#37 ·
Ok, around page 30 on this link:http://www.aphis.usda.gov/newsroom/2..._2011-2003.pdf someone asks about requiring the direct viewing of the breeding animals and their living conditions. APHIS states that they are NOT changing the wording to include this (Thank God!) because it is beyond the scope of what they are trying to accomplish? WTH? I thought that the whole reason they are doing this is to insure the health and well being of the animals, right? I guess this only pertains to some animals and not others? They go on and on about the poor puppies being bought sight unseen with so many health issues, so they try to correct it by making people come and see the pup before its shipped. It doesn't require the seller to show anyone the dam or kennel area. It was even brought up that someone could meet at a dummy store or heck, even Walmart and that would fulfill the requirement.
Don't get me wrong, I am all against this stupid farce against breeders, but how does this ensure that the pup that you are buying is healthy? Give a pup a bath with sweet smelling shampoo, clean the goop out of its eyes, feed it some tylan powder to cover up the diarrhea, and you have a pup that looks pretty normal. How many pet people even have an inkling of a clue as to what to look for? They are impulse buyers! See that cute little puppy? Oh I gotta have it now! Oh, it got a bit car sick, and that trip really tired him out because he just lays around, which is great because he isn't chewing on anything. Oh, and he must be housebroken because he hasn't pooped once!
Unless the puppy mill or back yard breeder is a total idiot and tries to sell a half starved flea bitten hairless mutt (in which case, the buyer will most likely buy it to 'save it' ), I really don't see the whole point of this buyer, seller, pet, in the same place rule.
I guess I am kind of hard hearted, but if you spend more time picking out a set of tires for the car or do more research as to the number of transfat calories in your lunch, then I think that you get what you deserve. What happened to survival of the fittest? Heck, what happened to darwinism?
 
#42 ·
Luckily, IL doesn't have a tax on services *yet*. I think it's because they haven't figured out how to exempt doctors and lawyers from having to charge the service tax.
So no, no sales tax on boarding.
 
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