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Thread: Puppy Breeders selling online

  1. #41
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    Can we still take deposits on puppies without the buyer seeing the pup or before the breeding takes place?

  2. #42
    Senior Member hotel4dogs's Avatar
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    Luckily, IL doesn't have a tax on services *yet*. I think it's because they haven't figured out how to exempt doctors and lawyers from having to charge the service tax.
    So no, no sales tax on boarding.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Kiefer View Post
    You don't charge sales tax on boarding?
    In my county in Wis. it is 5.5%.
    Same for selling anything.
    Sue

    Barb Gibson
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    CH Rosewood Little Giant UDX VER RA MHU SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG
    also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT
    (golden retriever) born 3-10-07
    a.k.a. "Tito", "The Tito Monster"
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norse2 View Post
    Can we still take deposits on puppies without the buyer seeing the pup or before the breeding takes place?
    I would guess so ... so long as the deposit is refundable. Until the sale is completed,you would not be in violation. Once the sale is complete, you could be in violation and refusing to refund the deposit could cause you to cross the line. However, I'll take this to a lawyer that is read in on the USDA/APHIS rule.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  4. #44
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    To show the interest this rule is generating, I asked your question and already have the answer. Here's the exchange....

    *******
    "Can we still take deposits on puppies without the buyer seeing the pup or before the breeding takes place?"

    My thoughts are that so long as the deposit is refundable, no sale has taken place and since the sale is not complete, no rule has yet taken effect. Correct?

    Eric
    ******
    The answer from my friend the lawyer...

    Obviously, it is impossible for a dog to be present before it is born. The sale takes place when the buyer takes possession of the dog. So, yes, you are correct.
    *******
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  5. #45

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    With these types of legislation, it seems the devil is always in the details. How will enforcement officials interpret the language? My brother-in-law is having trouble with some neighbors b/c they call animal services on him all the time. He takes care of his dog, but it does spend most of its time in the backyard. The neighbor waits until a rainy day, then calls to report an animal standing in mud with muddy water. Of course he's in mud with muddy water, it's raining! When it stops raining, they change the water.
    The enforcement official who comes each time has been a pain in the ***. So, I see the same with this law, it will all come down to enforcement and interpretation.
    Brian Burress
    Tennessee
    www.burrdogs.com
    HRCH Dixie Girl Burress MH -- 2012 Master National Qualifier

  6. #46
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    This was written by Barb Reichman, the Legislative Liaison of the GRCA. It really covers well the basic question or issue.

    ************
    The definition of retail pet stores (which are still exempt under the regulations) reads, in relevant part, "retail pet store means a place of business or residence at which the seller, buyer, and the animal available for sale are physically present so that every buyer may personally observe the animal prior to purchasing and/or taking custody of that animal after purchase. . . ."

    All the other exemptions are for those who do not meet the basic definition. People who do not ship animals have had nothing change. In addition the buyer is not necessarily the ultimate owner of the animal. It can be someone representing the ultimate owner who is the buyer for purposes of the regulations.

    What that means is that as long as the transaction is done face to face, there are no limits to the number of intact bitches you may own, and no limit to the number of puppies you sell. Their recognition that the "buyer" may not be the ultimate owner is to allow for transfers to occur when people cannot travel to pick up pups. But shipping sight unseen will cause you to lose your exemption.

    Dogs sold for hunting or breeding are already exempt and continue to be. Concerns about rare breeds being shipped for genetic diversity would fall under the sale for breeding.
    **************
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  7. #47
    Senior Member frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Johnson View Post
    This was written by Barb Reichman, the Legislative Liaison of the GRCA. It really covers well the basic question or issue.

    ************
    The definition of retail pet stores (which are still exempt under the regulations) reads, in relevant part, "retail pet store means a place of business or residence at which the seller, buyer, and the animal available for sale are physically present so that every buyer may personally observe the animal prior to purchasing and/or taking custody of that animal after purchase. . . ."

    All the other exemptions are for those who do not meet the basic definition. People who do not ship animals have had nothing change. In addition the buyer is not necessarily the ultimate owner of the animal. It can be someone representing the ultimate owner who is the buyer for purposes of the regulations.

    What that means is that as long as the transaction is done face to face, there are no limits to the number of intact bitches you may own, and no limit to the number of puppies you sell. Their recognition that the "buyer" may not be the ultimate owner is to allow for transfers to occur when people cannot travel to pick up pups. But shipping sight unseen will cause you to lose your exemption.

    Dogs sold for hunting or breeding are already exempt and continue to be. Concerns about rare breeds being shipped for genetic diversity would fall under the sale for breeding.
    **************
    Eric, I thought that it was also clarified that the buyer representative could not be someone being paid to transport the dog, i.e. ground transport. Was that your understanding?
    Terrie Tomlinson
    Frontier Retrievers
    HR Five Star Winning Sue SH
    Young Guns: Frontier's True Grit With a Cause "Rooster" and Frontier's Gossip Girl With A Cause "Gabby"
    Boykin Spaniels: Max, Scarlet, Rummy, Jewels, Bella, Molly, and Piper

    In Memory:
    HRCH Frontier's Cherokee Rebel MH (5-9-2000 to 12-6-2011)
    Moonstone's Little Girl Found MH (3-20-1998 to 5-2-2008)
    Calebri's Take the Money and Run JH (3-3-2008 to 6-20-2012)

  8. #48
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    My notes are unclear on this. They did clearly say that a scheme could be worked to create a buyer's agent but they moved on after stating it and didn't clarify "how?". There are some copies of the conference around and I was going to listen again this w/e. If so, I'll let you know.

    Meant to ask...do you know Dan and Sharon Kauzlarich with their Boykins? They also have Tollers and are good friends.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  9. #49
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    I read the following in an AKC email:
    The rule expands USDA oversight of pet breeders to include people who maintain at least five “breeding females” of any species AND sell one pet “sight unseen.”

    So if you own 4 or less breeding females nothing changes correct? You can sell dogs without a face to face meeting and you can ship them as well correct? And still be exempt from usda?

  10. #50
    Senior Member frontier's Avatar
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    Terrie Tomlinson
    Frontier Retrievers
    HR Five Star Winning Sue SH
    Young Guns: Frontier's True Grit With a Cause "Rooster" and Frontier's Gossip Girl With A Cause "Gabby"
    Boykin Spaniels: Max, Scarlet, Rummy, Jewels, Bella, Molly, and Piper

    In Memory:
    HRCH Frontier's Cherokee Rebel MH (5-9-2000 to 12-6-2011)
    Moonstone's Little Girl Found MH (3-20-1998 to 5-2-2008)
    Calebri's Take the Money and Run JH (3-3-2008 to 6-20-2012)

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