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Honour dog leaves before being released

17K views 75 replies 38 participants last post by  mathewrodriguez 
#1 · (Edited)
Honour dog leaves the honour position to go sniff or return to the truck and shows no interest in the action in the field nor interferes with the working dog as it races out to pick up a mark. The judges have not released the honour dog yet either because the working dog has not reached a pre-agreed distance from the line or the judge wants to see at least one bird returned to hand by the working dog. The judges have given the handler of the working dog his/her number.

Question #1 Has the honour dog incurred an infraction by moving before being released? If so what penalty?

Question #2 Is the handler of the honour dog permitted to speak to his dog after the working dog has been given a release by the judges and in turn the handler has released his working dog to retrieve a mark in a field trial?

Question #3 Is there a penalty to the honour dog who lays down at the honour position?

For the many hunt test folks and field trial folkswhat does your rule book say?
 
#2 ·
Assuming AKC

1) dog left honor, it broke. End of your day thanks for playing.
2) handler can speak quietly to the honor dog the entire time
3) no, unless laying down prevents the dog from seeing the marks and the working dog.
 
#3 ·
Corey is correct as the rules below state:

"Section 6. Honoring. In Senior and Master Tests,
every dog shall honor in at least one hunting situation
involving the retrieve of a marked fall(s) by remaining on
the line off-lead while the working dog retrieves, unless
otherwise directed or until dismissed by the Judges.
Only one dog at a time may be required to honor the
retrieve of the working dog. The honoring dog must be in
an area designated by the judges. The specific positions
(sitting, lying down, etc.) of the honoring dog will be
determined by the handler provided the honoring dog is
positioned to clearly see all the marks without having to
reposition itself."
 
#4 ·
Pretty clear whats allowed.

OP's dog broke.... Have a nice day, your done.

I dont however agree with the rule that allows a dog to lie down.

I mean would you let your dog lie down when its the working dog? And why wouldnt you! Its because you want to make sure they can SEE!!

The honor dog in MY mind is there in real life circumstances to be part of the hunt,, and if needed for some reason, to help pick up birds..
Its part of the days hunt..

I dont like piggy dogs that dont "Want"

Now,,,, Dont all a you with lazy dogs get all wadded up! Gooser aint a Judge,, wont EVER be a Judge! I just like to come on here and spew my silly Opinion, when it raining so hard outside , that you have to consider you might drown if you go out!

Such is the case this A,M. Thats why I is not training,, and wasting time posting on the internet, ( Training Group)

Iknowits more information than you probably care to read,, but again,, I dont care if I bore you!

Gooser :):):)
 
#25 ·
Corey is correct as the rules below state:

"Section 6. Honoring. In Senior and Master Tests,
every dog shall honor in at least one hunting situation
involving the retrieve of a marked fall(s) by remaining on
the line off-lead while the working dog retrieves, unless
otherwise directed or until dismissed by the Judges.
Only one dog at a time may be required to honor the
retrieve of the working dog. The honoring dog must be in
an area designated by the judges. The specific positions
(sitting, lying down, etc.) of the honoring dog will be
determined by the handler provided the honoring dog is
positioned to clearly see all the marks without having to
reposition itself."

I mean really,,,, Cant you READ??? Thats what Ted would tell me!!

I didnt mean dog BROK to retrieve,, He broke his "sit" and wandered off before the judge told himhe could..

Just like a test I should have failed when I got up off the bucket when I considered my dog sat there long enough!:):)

I got back to the gallery and was told I got up before being release,, but the judge didnt notice..
 
#7 ·
I disagree, given the OP's precise scenario.

1. Break. It is generally understood that a break occurs
when a dog makes a movement, that, in the opinion of the
Judges, indicates a deliberate intent to retrieve without having
been ordered to do so, and cannot be brought under
control by the handler.


and

Section 11. Interference. In a Senior or Master
Hunting Test, when a dog is ordered by the Judge to
retrieve a fall, and another dog breaks for the same fall
and interferes with the working dog to the extent of
causing it in any way to make a faulty performance, the
dog interfered with shall be considered as not having
been tested and given another evaluation


This hypothetical dog has neither: 1. Shown an intent to retrieve 2. Interfered with the working dog, nor 3. Failed to show that he is able to be brought under control by his handler.

Maybe this is a 10-yo "seen it all" dog that knows he's already picked up those marks, has completed his honor since the working dog has torn off for the go-bird, and would rather go sniff where that girl dog had just peed behind the mat? If I were judging this dog on honor and the working dog has left, I would likely quietly ask the handler to re-heel, then if done promptly, release him from honor. If he's back at the truck or in the gallery or eating a bird off the rack, then we have a problem.
 
#22 ·
Go back and read the rule re honoring. Dogs must remain on honor until released by the judges. It may or may not be a break but if phideaux wanders off before he's excused he gets to stay on the truck. Now if the handler gets him back to the honor box w/o much fuss he's put the decision back in the judges' hands.
 
#10 ·
According to the FT Rule Book

Page 27

5. Judges shall in their discretion determine the number of dogs that shall be worked or kept on line simultaneously. In at least one test involving the retrieve of a marked fall in all stakes, except Derby, every dog should be kept on line off leash while another dog works. If a dog has failed the test and is asked to remain on line to honor the work of the next running dog, the Judges may direct that the dog honor on lead or off lead as they deem appropriate.

6. When coming to line to be tested, and while on line, the dog and handler should assume such positions as may be directed by the Judges.
Dogs should be considered under judgment from the time they are called to come to the line until they have left the line and are back of all the Judges and on leash.

Page 32

During the period from the moment when the handler signals readiness for the birds to be thrown until the dog’s number is called, the handler of the working or honoring dog shall remain silent. Also, in all marking tests during such period, the handler’s hands shall remain quietly in close proximity to his body.

If it were a field trial and I were judging

1. Drop. Honor is a test of obedience. Dog failed.
2. No issue
3. Depending on how handler got the dog to down position, no issue.
 
#13 · (Edited)
If it were a field trial and I were judging

1. Drop. Honor is a test of obedience. Dog failed.
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Does the same apply to the dog that does not heel from the holding blind to the line? It is obedience and the dog is under judgement.

In years past many of today's dogs would be dropped for their poor line manners. This is an area IMHO that has become too lax.

Tim
 
#16 ·
I knew a field champion bitch that was dropped because of an honor. She was sitting and leaned over, and reached under the judges chair and got his lunch. She pulled out his sandwich and ate it. She left him the chips and the fruit. I really never understood the problem. It all happened rather quickly. ;)
 
#26 ·
Honour dog leaves the honour position to go sniff or return to the truck and shows no interest in the action in the field nor interferes with the working dog as it races out to pick up a mark. The judges have not released the honour dog yet either because the working dog has not reached a pre-agreed distance from the line or the judge wants to see at least one bird returned to hand by the working. The have given the handler of the working dog his/her number.

Question #1 Has the honour dog incurred an infraction by moving before being released? If so what penalty?

Question #2 Is the handler of the honour dog permitted to speak to his dog after the working dog has been given a release by the judges and in turn released his working dog to retrieve a mark in a field trial?

Question #3 Is there a penalty to the honour dog who lays down at the honour position?

For the many hunt test folks what does your rule book say?


Here is the OP's questions!!! I mean even Gooser can read,,, on some days!!:):)
 
#27 ·
I don't think there was a break. Rather, the dog failed to accomplish the task with which it was assigned - that being to remain in one place until released. Moreover, the listing of faults in the Rule Book is not exclusive. That is, just because something is not specifically listed on the Rule Book does not mean that it is not a fault.

I think marking is of primary importance, but not of sole importance. I would drop. Clearly, others would not. That is the subjective element of judging
 
#32 ·
Forgive me for coming in on your thread from across the sea!
The original post was a clarification on rules. I can't comment on them ..mainly because I don't know all your rules in a test or trial, and I've never entered one.
Over here we train extensively for the honour',whether that be in the shooting field on a walk up on live game being flushed and shot, or whether that is sitting at the line on a driven day with multiple game being shot. We also have zero tolerance to line manners (noise/movement/shuffle/lie downs/sniffing/marking/hard mouth/breaking/belly crawl ,in fact anything other than SIT! ) and all is conducted under the banner of 'Honouring' !...
For 'myself' I do extensive work in the field working multiple dogs 'non-slip' so they all 'honour' each other ,even the fire breather' that ''wants them all''!...I admire them!...because it is 'all of them'.
A fire breather' over here that 'breaks' or does not honour' has not been 'trained' to honour. Handlers that look for rules that exempt the training over here look for excuses in the training ,not the ability of the dog (imo).A dog that breaks/or does not honour in favour of the truck or some other interest over here,deserves the right to be trained right back on that truck before it is allowed to be in the honourable company again,rather than the argumentation or representation of the ruling (purely from my perception of rules;)) ..
It's just my two cents from a 'limeys' view, nothing personal or directive in any way.
 
#33 · (Edited)
I like the post above.

I hate to say this, but I suppose we need to define " Honor"

I think it means respect, and to be in the ready if needed.

The posture if lying down, to me doesn't represent respect.
Much like sitting down during the National Anthem.

Honoring ,to me , is a respectful postures gown to the working dog , much like military standing at attention.
 
#35 ·
Mike I'm going to disagree with the laying down - you are going to tell a Senior dog that just retrieved who is laying down quietly and honoring the working of the other dog is being disrespectful? I don't think dog's think like we do...I'm sorry but if Flash was here I'd tell him to piss on your leg and eat your samwhich if you told him he couldn't lay down on the honor! ;)
 
#37 ·
To answer the OP's question. If the honor dog gets up and leaves the area designated by the Judges, it is failing to complete the honoring portion of the test and warrants a zero in trainability. (The dog/handler chose to avoid a designed portion of the test while under judgement.)
 
#38 ·
To answer the OP's question. If the honor dog gets up and leaves the area designated by the Judges, it is failing to complete the honoring portion of the test and warrants a zero in trainability. (The dog/handler chose to avoid a designed portion of the test while under judgement.)
That's about as simple as you can say it!...If you take out the 'by judges' and 'judgement' and replace with 'handler'?
One could train for this, rather than 'rule' on it? perhaps.
 
#40 ·
Wow, tough judges! I take the view that rules are written often without full fleshing out for every conceivable occurrence within their pervue this might be one reason why judging standards differ both in retriever competitions and in the courts.
If the situation the OP describes occurred before me as a judge I would look beyond the Letter of the rule and look at the Intent of the rules concerning the "Honour". The assumption of those who crafted the rules was that any dog on Honour, if it were to leave the line, might reasonably be expected to be headed in the direction of the marks...this is what many of us experience in training and it is understandable that this would be the common expectation in competition. The intent of the honour rule appears to be a test of a dog's ability to stifle its drive and desire and not retrieve or interfere with the retrieve of birds meant for another, this is just my interpretation only but it will affect how I would call this.

If this occurred in a hunt test, I would score down on trainability and nothing more providing there was no drama or disruption caused by the exiting dog.
If this occurred in a Field Trial, I would make note and it would weigh in with all other considerations in deciding upon a placement or otherwise.
 
This post has been deleted
#44 ·
Breaking is a mandatory elimination under the “STANDARD’’ on page 56, rule 9. Rule 14, page 57, addresses dogs that are not on the line and under judgement but interfere. Those that might argue how great the dog was doing or it didn't interfere are not following the "STANDARD." Whether the dog went forward or took a happy stroll to the gallery, IMO, it is still breaking. In addition, I agree with Ted that the dog did not satisfactorily complete a required task; it didn't follow the fundamentals and spirit of honoring.
In order to call it a break, I thought the language stipulated something about "in an attempt to retrieve the bird".

JS
 
#45 ·
Chapter 3
Section 19. Failure to Obey. Judges shall have the
power to turn out of a test any dog which does not obey
its handler and any handler who interferes willfully with another handler or his dog.

Guidelines for the Hunting Test
Regulations for Retrievers
Chapter 3, Section 1, of the Regulations states:
“The purpose of a Hunting Test for Retrievers is to
test the merits of, and evaluate the abilities of Retrievers
in the field in order to determine their suitability and
ability as hunting companions. Hunting Tests must, therefore,
simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a
true hunting situation.”

You guys are nuts... maybe its just me? I have limited experience in Trials so I will stick to the Hunt Test aspect of the questions. Failure to Obey (Chaper 3 section 19) are grounds in and of itself to be dropped. Then there are the Guidlines for Retrievers and Hunting Test that states we are testing and evaluating the merits of the dog as a hunting companion.

A couple things here, first would I want to hunt with that dog. Very simply "NO" he failed the evaluation and merits of a hunting companion. 2nd he failed to obey severly. 3rd getting him under control is going to interfere with either the working dog, the handler, the judges or all of the above which again is grounds for being dropped.... then there is that don't disturb too much cover thing (I know it is talked about in the retrieving section of the rules, but should pertain to the entirty of the test)

I am in agreement with Ted 100% dog is dropped. Not only do the rules back me on it, but there is not a chance in hell I would want to hunt with that dog if he cant sit still and obey, and ultimately that is what we are testing and evaluating, isn't it?
 
#48 ·
I'm new to the hunt test game, but if my dog wandered off I'd expect to be heading home. My issue is the other end of the spectrum, as they sit there like a coiled trip wire and my heart in my throat quietly wispiring in my most authoritative voice i can muster siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
 
#49 ·
1-E Honoring in gun dog, all-age, limited gun dog, and limited all-age stakes. A dog encountering its bracemate on point must honor. Failure of a dog to honor when it sees its bracemate on point must be severely penalized, and the intentional avoidance by a dog or a handler of an honoring situation must also be severely penalized. (AKC Pointer FT Rules)

"Intentional avoidance"
I like that term. A good way to describe the OP situation. A dog laying down = avoidance? Still open to debate.
 
#51 ·
I think the reason we have so much disagreement on whether the dog in question should/would be dropped is because we may all be imagining different things when we read the description written by the OP. Hopefully if we all saw it there would be much more agreement.

I am not a judge so I'll just say as a HT handler in either AKC or HRC I would expect my dog to be dropped. It would not matter to me what the judges justification was. I agree it was not a "Break." Dropping the dog could easily come under the trainability heading. If the dog wanders away when he is supposed to be sitting he is out of control.

I disagree with Gooser on the laying down issue. I often tell my dog to lay down on honor. He can always see the marks and he is always attentive to the action. I started doing this when my old dog once sat on the honor for a long, long time while waiting on a re-bird or the handling of some mechanical issue. It was an insanely long time but I was afraid if I left the area of the line and then returned he might really think he was about to retrieve again (like a new series). He eventually decided nothing was happening and laid down. After that I used it as a way to communicate to him that his job was done. Further I reasoned that it takes a little more effort to break from a down position than from a sitting one.

As for the RESPECT factor, I completely agree that the handler/dog duo on honor should be respectful of the working dog. They should be still and quiet and present no distractions, but the main respect I'm looking for on honor (or any other situation) is for my dog to respect ME and if I told him to lay down then compliance equals respect to me and could in no way interfere with the working dog.
 
#52 · (Edited)
So I guess we're taking to different ideas of the honor dog down positions? The one people don't like where the dog itself chooses to lay down, basically ignoring the birds (showing indifference). and the one where the handler tells him to down, and the dog obeys ( but still watches the birds).

I can't say I've seen many of the first one, seems the majority of dogs are trained to down, but especially if there's a live flyer, they are still gonna watch. Of course there's those experienced dogs that know they aren't gonna retrieve, know that they're throwing dead birds, which land in the same place and the honor becomes tedium and down a habit. Still I'd hazard to guess that those older dogs if sent from the honor position, would go out and get those birds, even if they didn't appear to mark them, because heck they are dead and the dog already knows where they are going. Might even do a better job the second time, "maybe we can all run from the honor and improve our scores" ;).

Now to me, it seems like letting the honor dog retrieve something, every once in awhile, would add a lot of different possibilities on the judging of two dogs control in a test, perhaps get rid of the old-hat retrieve marks then honor scenario. However I believe if a judge put such in a test, it would be time consuming, too confusing to many handlers (handlers are impossible to train) and raise the roof on whining and complaints. Most people like he standard ole-hat,"snore"; most of the time interesting judges don't get invited back ;) that means an experienced dog will get bored on honor (regardless whether he's sitting or laying down). Heck I get bored on honor, I don't watch dead-birds, and given a mat, I would probably lay down and take a nap, which is why we need layout blinds in Master ;).
 
#53 ·
And this is the dog that has the best marks and had been wonderful all trial and you had penciled it into your blue position on the way back from that really tough long retired in the last series quad. I don't think so!

From blue to bye-bye for this. Maybe you, but not me! Minor fault at most.
Thanks for bringing up the subject of reality. My dog,,later in life started to get up and wonder around in my vicinity,, or she would roll over on her back ,,wriggle and kick around with her back feet which at one event was only 4 or 5 feet behind the working dog ,,just wiggling around. she did this at 8 or 10 events and was never dropped for it.

I suppose judging can be a bit subjective

Pete
 
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