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Thread: Honour dog leaves before being released

  1. #51
    Senior Member HuntinDawg's Avatar
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    I think the reason we have so much disagreement on whether the dog in question should/would be dropped is because we may all be imagining different things when we read the description written by the OP. Hopefully if we all saw it there would be much more agreement.

    I am not a judge so I'll just say as a HT handler in either AKC or HRC I would expect my dog to be dropped. It would not matter to me what the judges justification was. I agree it was not a "Break." Dropping the dog could easily come under the trainability heading. If the dog wanders away when he is supposed to be sitting he is out of control.

    I disagree with Gooser on the laying down issue. I often tell my dog to lay down on honor. He can always see the marks and he is always attentive to the action. I started doing this when my old dog once sat on the honor for a long, long time while waiting on a re-bird or the handling of some mechanical issue. It was an insanely long time but I was afraid if I left the area of the line and then returned he might really think he was about to retrieve again (like a new series). He eventually decided nothing was happening and laid down. After that I used it as a way to communicate to him that his job was done. Further I reasoned that it takes a little more effort to break from a down position than from a sitting one.

    As for the RESPECT factor, I completely agree that the handler/dog duo on honor should be respectful of the working dog. They should be still and quiet and present no distractions, but the main respect I'm looking for on honor (or any other situation) is for my dog to respect ME and if I told him to lay down then compliance equals respect to me and could in no way interfere with the working dog.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    So I guess we're taking to different ideas of the honor dog down positions? The one people don't like where the dog itself chooses to lay down, basically ignoring the birds (showing indifference). and the one where the handler tells him to down, and the dog obeys ( but still watches the birds).

    I can't say I've seen many of the first one, seems the majority of dogs are trained to down, but especially if there's a live flyer, they are still gonna watch. Of course there's those experienced dogs that know they aren't gonna retrieve, know that they're throwing dead birds, which land in the same place and the honor becomes tedium and down a habit. Still I'd hazard to guess that those older dogs if sent from the honor position, would go out and get those birds, even if they didn't appear to mark them, because heck they are dead and the dog already knows where they are going. Might even do a better job the second time, "maybe we can all run from the honor and improve our scores" .

    Now to me, it seems like letting the honor dog retrieve something, every once in awhile, would add a lot of different possibilities on the judging of two dogs control in a test, perhaps get rid of the old-hat retrieve marks then honor scenario. However I believe if a judge put such in a test, it would be time consuming, too confusing to many handlers (handlers are impossible to train) and raise the roof on whining and complaints. Most people like he standard ole-hat,"snore"; most of the time interesting judges don't get invited back that means an experienced dog will get bored on honor (regardless whether he's sitting or laying down). Heck I get bored on honor, I don't watch dead-birds, and given a mat, I would probably lay down and take a nap, which is why we need layout blinds in Master .
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 09-13-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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  3. #53
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    And this is the dog that has the best marks and had been wonderful all trial and you had penciled it into your blue position on the way back from that really tough long retired in the last series quad. I don't think so!

    From blue to bye-bye for this. Maybe you, but not me! Minor fault at most.
    Thanks for bringing up the subject of reality. My dog,,later in life started to get up and wonder around in my vicinity,, or she would roll over on her back ,,wriggle and kick around with her back feet which at one event was only 4 or 5 feet behind the working dog ,,just wiggling around. she did this at 8 or 10 events and was never dropped for it.

    I suppose judging can be a bit subjective

    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjrice View Post
    Even if there is disagreement on the semantics of a break, the dog exhibited a complete loss of control. Per page 54, (2) - (2) Control is closely allied to the dog’s response to direction, but it also includes obedience at all times.Control also includes “line-manners,’’ walking tractably “at heel,’’ assuming and staying in any designated position on-line, as well as remaining quietly on-line. So whether you call it a break or out-of-control, in this case, it is a serious fault and justifies elimination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Thanks for bringing up the subject of reality. My dog,,later in life started to get up and wonder around in my vicinity,, or she would roll over on her back ,,wriggle and kick around with her back feet which at one event was only 4 or 5 feet behind the working dog ,,just wiggling around. she did this at 8 or 10 events and was never dropped for it.

    I suppose judging can be a bit subjective

    Pete
    I remain of my original opinion. If the dog breaks makes a move to retrieve or interferes with the working dog no problem he gets dropped. That dog that rolls over to scratch his back, get a drink from the water bowl or the paddle pool that is at the line for him, really isn't a big deal for me. I have already seen what I like in the dog in the field and the fact that the dog has no intention of stealing the working dogs bird has passed the honor test for me. A Minor fault for me and one that I would give very little significance to in assessing placements at the end of the day and in my mind certainly not an eliminating fault. Normally it is the savvy old dogs with character, who know the game that are involved, and those are the ones I like to watch. Dogs that have exhibited far worse (in my eyes) behavior out of control on the way to the line and while the birds are going down rarely get dropped and I would personally look much harder at this area. Talking FT here. HT I have no opinion of the severity of the infraction. MARK

  5. #55
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Is a dog with that low a level of interest in retrieving worth of anything BUT getting dropped?
    Darrin Greene

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Is a dog with that low a level of interest in retrieving worth of anything BUT getting dropped?
    As you know ,dogs are situational ...they learn over time to have certain expectations in a given situation...It isn't a lack of desire in some but an expectation of never going on another retrieve once put in the honor box...That is not to say the dog can act anyway they choose when there...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  7. #57
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    [QUOTE Is Is a dog with that low a level of interest in retrieving worth of anything BUT getting dropped?][/QUOTE]

    Darrin,,You must be pulling my leg.

    She has enough drive for 10 dogs with still plenty to go around. Its more like she became that savvy,,, And I would hunt with that dog any day and still do,,and regrettably,this will be her last season. (. But she left me with 2 dogs of with equal go power,,,just they haven't developed the savvy yet.
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 09-14-2013 at 02:31 PM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  8. #58
    Senior Member labguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Is a dog with that low a level of interest in retrieving worth of anything BUT getting dropped?
    I'm very surprised at a comment like this coming from you Darrin. Maybe you want to re-think this.

    There are a number of very successful, talented and driven retrievers running field trials that essential ignore what's going on when they are honoring.

    These are seasoned veterens who have simply learned after hundreds of times to the line that there are no more retiieves coming.

    Situational learning 101. They simply know that the job is done.......................why would you fault a dog for this level of intelligence in understanding the game??????
    If I/we/you can't continue to advance our methods that focus on making training easier to learn/less painful for the dogs, we have no right to be training them. (Alec Sparks)


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  9. #59
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    As you know ,dogs are situational ...they learn over time to have certain expectations in a given situation...It isn't a lack of desire in some but an expectation of never going on another retrieve once put in the honor box...That is not to say the dog can act anyway they choose when there...Steve S
    Is that a learned behaviour through repetition or an honour?
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Is that a learned behaviour through repetition or an honour?
    Through repetition....The whole sequence of events is such a production in a NORMAL field trial over here they have it figured out from start to finish....There are some dogs that want the next bird ( high prey drive ) no matter what ...but others have learned it isn't going to happen...Some have paid too great a price for the attempt and learned the hard way....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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