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Thread: The income distribution - is this reverse socialism?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    An interesting conversation...I think we all know there is no easy answer(s) on how to get things "on track". It is not as easy as, go work hard, you will be able to make a decent living. Of course, that depends on everyones definition of a decent living. It is not as easy as, locating and then sending illegals back to their home country (with or without their citizen children), since American companies will just go to their home country for lower wage workers and products that seem to increase in costs. I do guess that is part of a free world economy. We are all part of and reliant on the government for services, no one in this country does not utilize or work for government/government services, whether it be police, fire, medicare, etc...What we do know is that corporate and CEO incomes are at record levels, while wages are not even close to keeping pace. Is that the right of the corporation/ceo? Well, of course. I feel the question is, do we develop solutions that are best for corporations or everyone as an individualists or the country as a whole (balance of all of the above). We do know that the best way out of poverty/social development is education. This is especially true as we look to our society as it will be in the future, not as it was in the past. We know that many of our future jobs are not even in existence today, thanks to technology. According to the latest stats, 60% of jobs in 2018 will require a college degree. In 2011, 66% of high school graduates attended college and 59% of those graduated within 6 years. On the surface, seems like we are in the ball park. As we know, many are graduating from college with incredibly high loans that will impact them for years beyond graduation. Obviously, that is one of the costs of getting to college, when you are from a family that is not able to save the $20,000+ it costs. The high costs of 4 year schools is one of leading reasons for the the growth in 2 year community colleges (not a bad thing). We could go to work for a year, go to college for a year, work for a year, etc...and while that is a solution, I don't know that it is a workable solution for the masses. As a community, helping parents understand/learn methods and the importance of saving for college would help. As we all know, people who come from educated families or families with wealth, tend to stay/improve that status, and those who come from poverty/undereducated tend to stay in that status. My experience is that those with the background know how to navigate the systems, financial aide, college investments, connections, etc... and those who have no experience don't know what/how to do. One of the big reasons we have a culture of poverty, or wealth, depending on your background. Is it the government or societies place to help this segment of our society? Maybe only if we want all of our communities to improve. I do feel, that we will not improve as a society, if our biggest employers continue to amass incredible wealth, while those who are the reason for the wealth continue to survive in poverty. I brought up the point of CEO making their massive salaries, and I feel in most cases they should be earning large salaries. However, should they be making 1200 times the salary of their workers? Should our largest employer in the country, with 1.3 million jobs in the US (2.2 worldwide), pay their average worker an average of $8.81 and hour which translates to $15,576 a year, assuming 34 hours per week, 52 weeks a year? For a family of four, the 2010 poverty rate is $20,050. In 2010 the CEO made 18.7 million dollars in compensation. Can they do it? Obviously, they do. Is it right? Is it best for the country as we are trying to put people to work and help people to a "better" way of life? Not picking on Walmart, but since they are in the news and do make for a great example...
    So, who is the largest employer in the USA today?

    BTW---more people have degrees today than ever before.
    We also obviously have more poverty.
    Welfare at all time highs.
    Food stamps growing exponentially.
    Though the published UE rate is low, more people in the USA than ever NOT working.
    How does one reconcile this?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    An interesting conversation...I think we all know there is no easy answer(s) on how to get things "on track". It is not as easy as, go work hard, you will be able to make a decent living. Of course, that depends on everyones definition of a decent living. It is not as easy as, locating and then sending illegals back to their home country (with or without their citizen children), since American companies will just go to their home country for lower wage workers and products that seem to increase in costs. I do guess that is part of a free world economy. We are all part of and reliant on the government for services, no one in this country does not utilize or work for government/government services, whether it be police, fire, medicare, etc...What we do know is that corporate and CEO incomes are at record levels, while wages are not even close to keeping pace. Is that the right of the corporation/ceo? Well, of course. I feel the question is, do we develop solutions that are best for corporations or everyone as an individualists or the country as a whole (balance of all of the above). We do know that the best way out of poverty/social development is education. This is especially true as we look to our society as it will be in the future, not as it was in the past. We know that many of our future jobs are not even in existence today, thanks to technology. According to the latest stats, 60% of jobs in 2018 will require a college degree. In 2011, 66% of high school graduates attended college and 59% of those graduated within 6 years. On the surface, seems like we are in the ball park. As we know, many are graduating from college with incredibly high loans that will impact them for years beyond graduation. Obviously, that is one of the costs of getting to college, when you are from a family that is not able to save the $20,000+ it costs. The high costs of 4 year schools is one of leading reasons for the the growth in 2 year community colleges (not a bad thing). We could go to work for a year, go to college for a year, work for a year, etc...and while that is a solution, I don't know that it is a workable solution for the masses. As a community, helping parents understand/learn methods and the importance of saving for college would help. As we all know, people who come from educated families or families with wealth, tend to stay/improve that status, and those who come from poverty/undereducated tend to stay in that status. My experience is that those with the background know how to navigate the systems, financial aide, college investments, connections, etc... and those who have no experience don't know what/how to do. One of the big reasons we have a culture of poverty, or wealth, depending on your background. Is it the government or societies place to help this segment of our society? Maybe only if we want all of our communities to improve. I do feel, that we will not improve as a society, if our biggest employers continue to amass incredible wealth, while those who are the reason for the wealth continue to survive in poverty. I brought up the point of CEO making their massive salaries, and I feel in most cases they should be earning large salaries. However, should they be making 1200 times the salary of their workers? Should our largest employer in the country, with 1.3 million jobs in the US (2.2 worldwide), pay their average worker an average of $8.81 and hour which translates to $15,576 a year, assuming 34 hours per week, 52 weeks a year? For a family of four, the 2010 poverty rate is $20,050. In 2010 the CEO made 18.7 million dollars in compensation. Can they do it? Obviously, they do. Is it right? Is it best for the country as we are trying to put people to work and help people to a "better" way of life? Not picking on Walmart, but since they are in the news and do make for a great example...
    If you break your food into small pieces it will help you feel full, as for low wages try chewing gum.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    An interesting conversation...I think we all know there is no easy answer(s) on how to get things "on track". It is not as easy as, go work hard, you will be able to make a decent living. Of course, that depends on everyones definition of a decent living. It is not as easy as, locating and then sending illegals back to their home country (with or without their citizen children), since American companies will just go to their home country for lower wage workers and products that seem to increase in costs. I do guess that is part of a free world economy. We are all part of and reliant on the government for services, no one in this country does not utilize or work for government/government services, whether it be police, fire, medicare, etc...What we do know is that corporate and CEO incomes are at record levels, while wages are not even close to keeping pace. Is that the right of the corporation/ceo? Well, of course. I feel the question is, do we develop solutions that are best for corporations or everyone as an individualists or the country as a whole (balance of all of the above). We do know that the best way out of poverty/social development is education. This is especially true as we look to our society as it will be in the future, not as it was in the past. We know that many of our future jobs are not even in existence today, thanks to technology. According to the latest stats, 60% of jobs in 2018 will require a college degree. In 2011, 66% of high school graduates attended college and 59% of those graduated within 6 years. On the surface, seems like we are in the ball park. As we know, many are graduating from college with incredibly high loans that will impact them for years beyond graduation. Obviously, that is one of the costs of getting to college, when you are from a family that is not able to save the $20,000+ it costs. The high costs of 4 year schools is one of leading reasons for the the growth in 2 year community colleges (not a bad thing). We could go to work for a year, go to college for a year, work for a year, etc...and while that is a solution, I don't know that it is a workable solution for the masses. As a community, helping parents understand/learn methods and the importance of saving for college would help. As we all know, people who come from educated families or families with wealth, tend to stay/improve that status, and those who come from poverty/undereducated tend to stay in that status. My experience is that those with the background know how to navigate the systems, financial aide, college investments, connections, etc... and those who have no experience don't know what/how to do. One of the big reasons we have a culture of poverty, or wealth, depending on your background. Is it the government or societies place to help this segment of our society? Maybe only if we want all of our communities to improve. I do feel, that we will not improve as a society, if our biggest employers continue to amass incredible wealth, while those who are the reason for the wealth continue to survive in poverty. I brought up the point of CEO making their massive salaries, and I feel in most cases they should be earning large salaries. However, should they be making 1200 times the salary of their workers? Should our largest employer in the country, with 1.3 million jobs in the US (2.2 worldwide), pay their average worker an average of $8.81 and hour which translates to $15,576 a year, assuming 34 hours per week, 52 weeks a year? For a family of four, the 2010 poverty rate is $20,050. In 2010 the CEO made 18.7 million dollars in compensation. Can they do it? Obviously, they do. Is it right? Is it best for the country as we are trying to put people to work and help people to a "better" way of life? Not picking on Walmart, but since they are in the news and do make for a great example...
    Those corporations that can afford the best lobbyist, win. That's because they get to write the laws and Tax Code that gives them that unfair advantage. The only way to level the playing field and a return to fair pay is to return to real Capitalism and Free Markets. That means limiting the government by ending lobbying and corporate campaign contributions. If a sub-committee has questions regarding future legislation, they can call in professionals from that industry to testify in front of the sub-committee and not in some private backroom. In regards to Walmart, the last I checked, they provide jobs. If people don't like what they are paying, they are free to find another employer. Wages should be determined by the Free Market and not artificially via a minimum wage.
    Changing the Presidential Debates to allow Liberty on the stage will change America. You can help. Go to Our America's Debate Challenge to learn how you can help.

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    The largest employer in the US is Walmart. I agree that poverty is rising, I feel some of the reasons being our underemployed (which includes suburban poverty which is at all time highs), expiring unemployment benefits, etc...Since poverty is directly tied to unemployment, it is a given increase due to the economy. According to the Georgetown Center on Poverty, poverty among those 65 and older are at historically low levels, mainly due to Social Security payments.

    Yes, college degrees are at all time highs, rising about 4% from the late 90s. Those rates were pretty stagnant from the early 70s until now. I think that degrees will increase as technology reliance increases and the job market continues to change.

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    This is the best story I've read on Walmart wages. http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin...ore-trying-to/
    Last edited by Franco; 11-27-2013 at 11:04 AM.
    Changing the Presidential Debates to allow Liberty on the stage will change America. You can help. Go to Our America's Debate Challenge to learn how you can help.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    An interesting conversation...I think we all know there is no easy answer(s) on how to get things "on track". It is not as easy as, go work hard, you will be able to make a decent living. Of course, that depends on everyones definition of a decent living. It is not as easy as, locating and then sending illegals back to their home country (with or without their citizen children), since American companies will just go to their home country for lower wage workers and products that seem to increase in costs. I do guess that is part of a free world economy. We are all part of and reliant on the government for services, no one in this country does not utilize or work for government/government services, whether it be police, fire, medicare, etc...What we do know is that corporate and CEO incomes are at record levels, while wages are not even close to keeping pace. Is that the right of the corporation/ceo? Well, of course. I feel the question is, do we develop solutions that are best for corporations or everyone as an individualists or the country as a whole (balance of all of the above). We do know that the best way out of poverty/social development is education. This is especially true as we look to our society as it will be in the future, not as it was in the past. We know that many of our future jobs are not even in existence today, thanks to technology. According to the latest stats, 60% of jobs in 2018 will require a college degree. In 2011, 66% of high school graduates attended college and 59% of those graduated within 6 years. On the surface, seems like we are in the ball park. As we know, many are graduating from college with incredibly high loans that will impact them for years beyond graduation. Obviously, that is one of the costs of getting to college, when you are from a family that is not able to save the $20,000+ it costs. The high costs of 4 year schools is one of leading reasons for the the growth in 2 year community colleges (not a bad thing). We could go to work for a year, go to college for a year, work for a year, etc...and while that is a solution, I don't know that it is a workable solution for the masses. As a community, helping parents understand/learn methods and the importance of saving for college would help. As we all know, people who come from educated families or families with wealth, tend to stay/improve that status, and those who come from poverty/undereducated tend to stay in that status. My experience is that those with the background know how to navigate the systems, financial aide, college investments, connections, etc... and those who have no experience don't know what/how to do. One of the big reasons we have a culture of poverty, or wealth, depending on your background. Is it the government or societies place to help this segment of our society? Maybe only if we want all of our communities to improve. I do feel, that we will not improve as a society, if our biggest employers continue to amass incredible wealth, while those who are the reason for the wealth continue to survive in poverty. I brought up the point of CEO making their massive salaries, and I feel in most cases they should be earning large salaries. However, should they be making 1200 times the salary of their workers? Should our largest employer in the country, with 1.3 million jobs in the US (2.2 worldwide), pay their average worker an average of $8.81 and hour which translates to $15,576 a year, assuming 34 hours per week, 52 weeks a year? For a family of four, the 2010 poverty rate is $20,050. In 2010 the CEO made 18.7 million dollars in compensation. Can they do it? Obviously, they do. Is it right? Is it best for the country as we are trying to put people to work and help people to a "better" way of life? Not picking on Walmart, but since they are in the news and do make for a great example...
    My father had a 10th grade education(at least we know he made it to the 10th grade). My mother had a high school education. I have a Dental degree, one sister has a Masters in Economics, the other a Masters in English. No SBA loans, 1st time home buyers loans, food stamps, rent subsidy, and above all NO STUDENT LOANS!! Took me 10 years to save the money, take the required courses for admission and graduate. Took desire, determination, decipline, perseverance and patience. Was that for the masses? Of course not. the masses choose to get married, buy a house, a new shiny car and have kids, along with credit cards, I might add. Do I condemn those choices, of course not. But don't expect to make such choices and then complain for lack of opportunity of education without others paying for it. Don't expect sympathy for those who lack those qualities above when they do not have the resulting benefits.

    Don't you think those who make $8/hr, $100/hr or even $1000/hr would choose a better pay if there was one available? They make what they make because no one is willing to pay them more. Do you REALLY believe that forcing CEO's to make less, will result in greater pay for those who make less? Do you think that a company would pay a CEO 18 mill if it thought it could pay 10 mill and STILL be just as profitable? Given the labor market, a company pays each employee from the CEO to the janitor that salary which will maximize profits. As a consumer, neither you nor I could care less. I demand is that they produce goods and services at a competitive price. I assume you like I shop for the cheapest price when we purchase a good or service.

    As a result of the recession, the current administration encouraged those who lost their jobs to go to college for a better job. Well 40% of those who ACTUALLY GRADUATED in 2010 and got a job, got one that required NO COLLEGE EDUCATION. Now most are saddled with student loans and a job they could have had anyway. I think one would call that a bad choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    The largest employer in the US is Walmart. I agree that poverty is rising, I feel some of the reasons being our underemployed (which includes suburban poverty which is at all time highs), expiring unemployment benefits, etc...Since poverty is directly tied to unemployment, it is a given increase due to the economy. According to the Georgetown Center on Poverty, poverty among those 65 and older are at historically low levels, mainly due to Social Security payments.

    Yes, college degrees are at all time highs, rising about 4% from the late 90s. Those rates were pretty stagnant from the early 70s until now. I think that degrees will increase as technology reliance increases and the job market continues to change.
    No it is not.

    Check again.

    And as far as outrageous executive level pay............those lobbyists give gifts and money and insider info (that we can't get) to the people who run the largest employers in the USA.

    Federal, State and Local Governments!

    The Civil Service employs 2,000,000 alone, not counting the Post Office!!!
    Last edited by road kill; 11-27-2013 at 02:32 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    My father had a 10th grade education(at least we know he made it to the 10th grade). My mother had a high school education. I have a Dental degree, one sister has a Masters in Economics, the other a Masters in English. No SBA loans, 1st time home buyers loans, food stamps, rent subsidy, and above all NO STUDENT LOANS!! Took me 10 years to save the money, take the required courses for admission and graduate. Took desire, determination, decipline, perseverance and patience. Was that for the masses? Of course not. the masses choose to get married, buy a house, a new shiny car and have kids, along with credit cards, I might add. Do I condemn those choices, of course not. But don't expect to make such choices and then complain for lack of opportunity of education without others paying for it. Don't expect sympathy for those who lack those qualities above when they do not have the resulting benefits.

    Don't you think those who make $8/hr, $100/hr or even $1000/hr would choose a better pay if there was one available? They make what they make because no one is willing to pay them more. Do you REALLY believe that forcing CEO's to make less, will result in greater pay for those who make less? Do you think that a company would pay a CEO 18 mill if it thought it could pay 10 mill and STILL be just as profitable? Given the labor market, a company pays each employee from the CEO to the janitor that salary which will maximize profits. As a consumer, neither you nor I could care less. I demand is that they produce goods and services at a competitive price. I assume you like I shop for the cheapest price when we purchase a good or service.

    As a result of the recession, the current administration encouraged those who lost their jobs to go to college for a better job. Well 40% of those who ACTUALLY GRADUATED in 2010 and got a job, got one that required NO COLLEGE EDUCATION. Now most are saddled with student loans and a job they could have had anyway. I think one would call that a bad choice.
    I would love to see you get thru Pre-Med and Dental school without incurring debt today.....or even 10 years ago,for that matter.

    I put myself thru a 4 year State university 1970-1975 working part time jobs during the school year and working a full time job plus a part time job in the summers. That simply can't be done today, even ata State university, which is the least expensive way to go. You need to stop living in the past, Cary.

    Sometimes the job market throws you a curve. That's how I ended up with a career as a machinist for 23 years and more recently as a designer for the last 17. I have no regrets. It's been interesting and challenging and I have enjoyed good wages and benefits. But it isn't what I went to school for. So you can see that this is not a new phenomenon; It happened to me in 1975.-Paul
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    http://247wallst.com/jobs/2011/09/01...of-the-future/
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...oyers/2680249/

    I agree with the Civil Service employing a large number. I should have clarified private employer. However, as unbelievable as it may seem, finding a somewhat common number for civil service jobs is pretty difficult. Numbers have ranged from 1.7 million to 2.4 million. You'd think it might be a little easier to find. Cary, your path to your career is admirable and I certainly didn't mean to imply anything negative about anyone's background, only that education was the path towards a "better" life for most people. I also don't know that CEO would have to have their pay cut, to improve the worker's lot, although that is one way. Another possibility could be, according to a study researching Wal mart, increasing workers wages to $12.00/hour, which would increase most worker's annual salary from app. $3000-$6000. The cost to shoppers would be about .42/trip. I believe I have those figures correct. That would not decrease the CEO salary or profit margin, but would increase workers wages. Doesn't seem like a bad deal...keep your profits, CEO can keep their salary, and the workers gain. But then again, most I believe many business philosophies today would be increase the costs of items, don't improve workers salaries, and take more profits. Good for the business? Yes, it is good for the investors. Good for society? Nope, I don't think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post
    I would love to see you get thru Pre-Med and Dental school without incurring debt today.....or even 10 years ago,for that matter.

    I put myself thru a 4 year State university 1970-1975 working part time jobs during the school year and working a full time job plus a part time job in the summers. That simply can't be done today, even ata State university, which is the least expensive way to go. You need to stop living in the past, Cary.

    Sometimes the job market throws you a curve. That's how I ended up with a career as a machinist for 23 years and more recently as a designer for the last 17. I have no regrets. It's been interesting and challenging and I have enjoyed good wages and benefits. But it isn't what I went to school for. So you can see that this is not a new phenomenon; It happened to me in 1975.-Paul
    My son went to college about 10 years ago. MAXIMUM TUITION of any semester was $2,300. Total cost of books, fees, tuition was about $9,000. Since the legalization of the lottery, of which all income derived, goes to education, students (these are general numbers since it has been a while since I looked the up), with a "C" average or above and a score of 19( not sure but no more than an average score), receives a scolarship at least equal to the tuition, books and fees of a state university. I feel sure that in towns of 10,000 or more, there is a Jr. College, College, or a satelite campus of at least 1 university. I doubt there are few if any that live farther than 20 miles from a state college or campus. The problem is there is such a low standard to qualify that there is a high failure rate. These students flood the colleges and create far greater demand than there would normally be.

    My source is Dave Ramsey, creator of a program named Financial Peace. He says there are a great many scolarships that are not awarded due to lack of applicants. If I remember his daughter while in High School located by herself and was awarded 5 of them. More to the story but that should be enough.

    You are probably right that I am living in the past. In no way do I believe that the kids of today are lazy. Instead of having people challenging me and telling me what I COULD do, these kids have people telling them what THEY CAN'T DO. I would believe a coach would expect his players to possess those qualities I have listed. I also believe a good coach would believe that his primary job is to MOTIVATE his players. Unfortunately kids have few to motivate them. I think the world of which you speak hurt rather than motivate.

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