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Poor Line/Blind Manners

6K views 25 replies 19 participants last post by  Hunt'EmUp 
#1 ·
I have a friend (Yeah, I know... it really is my friend's problem.) who owns an eighteen month old lab with terrible line manners. You know the type, calm and well mannered till the birds show-up, the calling and shooting begins. Now, the wheels fall off.. control is gone, vocalization begins, I have never dealt with this issue and would like to offer some advice to my friend. What do you all think. Thanks.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Pup's young. Assuming he has solid OB training he just needs to learn that unacceptable behavior means no birds. Might take several episodes but I'd set pup for a retrieve. Throw a dead bird. Any noise, any tussle, back to the truck. No pressure, no drama, just "no, heel." Repeat as necessary. When pup is quiet and steady, let him have a few dead birds. But zero tolerance for any noise or obedience issues. Next, do the same thing with a simulated flyer. Once that sets in, try a real flyer. But it's always 0 tolerance. That means that whether training, hunting or testing pup gets no birds unless he's quiet and steady. IMO pressure or punishment only exacerbates the problem. Pup wants birds. Removing the reward should allow him to figure out that if he's good, he gets a bird. If he acts up in any degree, "no, heel" back to the truck. It takes patience, but the process has worked for some headstrong pups. Have a good friend whose wild bitch was uncontrollable on the line. After several weeks of the above she settled in and became not only a pleasure to hunt with but a solid hunt test dog with 35+ straight master passes. Good luck. Be patient, you might do a dozen or more walk-backs to the truck. But pup should eventually learn what he needs to do to get the bird he wants. A firebreather is fun, but only if you can control the fire.
 
#11 ·
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L agree with you, Paul & Randy. Pup learns nothing in the truck. Additionally you are teaching that you want zero movement, so why move him 100 ft back to the truck. Taking back to the truck makes the lesson cloudier and also takes much more time. Teach the lesson in the moment. Throw bird if pup moves or makes noise have bird picked up and rethrown. Lather, rinse & repeat
 
#13 · (Edited)
Thanks-

Sounds like "no bird till he is quiet and settled in" is the answer. I also think in this particular situation, too many birds has been a problem. You know one bird after another without any pick-ups by the owner or another dog. I'll pass this along and I'll let you all know how things turn out. One question though, What is the correction for movement/vocalization at the time of the infraction?

Thanks again,
EG
 
#14 ·
what command has the dog broken? SIT! so the denial of retrieve could be enough correction or you could add whatever means the trainer used to force/reinforce the sit command such as a heeling stick or nick with collar......i would suggest just denying retrieve consistnetly first.....my .02
 
#15 ·
I also have a friend with a dog who excessively vocalizes at the line. Two things are certain: 1) it's a very frustrating and difficult problem to remedy 2) It needs to be dealt with early and consistently.

To remedy: a quiet command must be taught, firmly grasping the dogs muzzle and giving the command quiet or hush. At the line, I firmly believe the correction must involve the dogs mouth, i.e. a stick or collar correction do no good in my opinion and neither does attrition or walking the dog off line. Why not? Because I've come to believe that some vocal dogs do not "realize" they are vocalizing and stick and collar corrections and walking a dog offline are ineffective because the dog does not understand what he/she is being corrected for.

I encourage the handler to firmly grasp the dog's muzzle give the quiet command and give a physical correction to the area on the dog making the offense (i.e. the mouth/muzzle). Have the thrower pick up the bird and re-throw. Prior to calling for the bird, the handler can reinforce the quiet command verbally and physically as described above. Repeat as necessary. You can reinforce quiet in your home, when socializing, when taking walks, it's an easy command to teach. Once taught, it can be transferred to the line and a correction given at the point of the offense. This isn't guaranteed, but I think it's the direction to work in.

Wishing your friend luck.

Bobby
 
#16 ·
I have a VERY vocal dog on the line. I have tried a lot of different things to try and control it including reducing the amount of excitement in the field by removing calls and shots. I am lucky that my boy is a good marker so, if he was quiet, he got his mark. This worked for a while and I slowly started working the calls and shots back in. If he made noise we went back to blind and did it again. He was doing well so I ran him in a test and everything I had worked towards completely disappeared and I had my old screaming machine back.

I believe that Teacher504 is on the right track but saying “quiet” meant nothing to my dog. Grabbing his muzzle meant nothing to him. I was lucky enough to discuss this problem with a very successful Pro (he had also witness my dog in rare form at a test) who gave me the following advice:

“With a dog like that, the “no noise on marks” will only work for a little while. As soon as you start running tests again it will probably show right back up. What we do with dogs like him is teach them to bark on command. He has no idea what that noise is coming out of him. If you teach to bark on command he will make the association and understand what he is doing. You can then teach him quiet, or no bark. He will then have understanding of what he is doing and you can then enforce a known command because he understands it. YOU turn it on and YOU turn it off!

It made perfect sense to me…

So I started teaching Scrubs to speak as soon as possible. It took a bit (funny that trying to get a vocal dog to speak can be that hard!), and a lot of treats, but he got it. Teaching quiet after that came very quickly. Got him really barking and then “quiet, treat/quiet, treat”. He is not perfect yet, and we also have other problems that we are trying to get through, but he is a lot better about it, especially in training.

Hope this will help. It is a bi!ch of a problem to fix.
 
#17 ·
The problem isn't hard to fix it takes lots of time, there's the real problem. Many pros and amateurs still beat the heck out of dogs for being noisy....takes less time but doesn't work with desired results.Most pros don't want them, takes to much time and after all day out training will they work the extra time later?? Probably not...time...high standards...time...high standards....Randy
 
#21 ·
sounds like the dog needs obedience work on lead u could probably fix this by putting the dog in an honoring situation while honoring on lead u can deal with the vocal problems sounds like most of the problem is obediance put the dog in same situation on lead and control it but if you are not in control it will only get worse dog gets verbal give a nick and no it's easy to let things like this happen when obedience is weak
 
#23 ·
Hmmm I'm reading this is a hunting problem, Dog makes noise and becomes a general a$$ once the bird show/up, the calling begins and then shooting takes place. It's hunting, I don't see how you could make that any less exciting; the dog is just going to have to be taught to deal with it. He can not be taught to deal with it, if his handler is distracted calling, shooting etc. unless the handler is very ambidextrous. My advice is handler needs to let his buddies hunt and correct the dog. As soon as the dog starts he need to be consistently corrected until, he learns that he needs to remain calm, regardless of what taking place in the blind or sky. Of course that consistency falls on the owner, still you could do as some stake the dog & utilize a bark caller to keep him quite.
 
#24 ·
When I have this problem at the line. I throw mark, if they are not quiet and obedient I will walk out myself and pick up mark. I'll pick it up and admire the bird and make a bog deal of what a nice bird while I walk back. Then we will try it again, and again... until dog is quiet and obedient. Then and only then does it get the retrieve. Couple of these sessions and they get the idea. ( I'll stake them at the line if I have to to make them stay while I get bird.) No collar. no pressure other than a sit and tap with a heeling stick. As mentioned prior they don't get put back on truck for bad line manners. Good Luck Jim
 
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